Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Michael]

Indeed (though it is an unprecedented and note worthy feature of this symphony) - I did also mention structure and form as well. In response to your other post, I do think that the 5th particularly is weighted towards the finale - but generally as Michael pointed out the classical symphony is weighted towards the first movement.

In most modern performances and recordings, the Fifth symphony is extremely finale-weighted, perhaps slightly more than Beethoven intended. It all comes down to the vexed question of the repeat in the scherzo which is hardly ever observed. We can blame Beethoven for this as it appears he never made up his mind about it. As a result, 90% of performances omit the scherzo repeat but leave in the repeat of the exposition in the finale. This causes a total imbalance as the scary C minor world of the scherzo has hardly had time to establish itself before it is blasted away by the long finale. It is victory without too much of a battle.
I have umpteen recordings of the Fifth but only one conductor, Karl Bohm, gets it right, in my humble. He omits the scherzo repeat but he also omits the exposition repeat in the finale, and the whole symphony is more balanced. The problem for me is that Bohm’s Fifth must be the most laid back version I have ever heard.
The ideal solution is to restore the scherzo repeat and then shriek C major to the heavens for as long as you like! (Well, you know what I mean.)

[Quijote]

Yes, that's true. Audiences were used to long performances in those days, and it was hardly Beethoven's fault that it was such a cold night.

I blame Margaret Thatcher for that cold night (Cf the miners' strike and so on. Long live Arthur Scargill. And Tony Benn!). Sorry for the silly political reference, I couldn't resist it! A reflection of my 'profound but provocative wisdom' as Peter referred to it, perhaps? Or not.

[Quijote]

Indeed (though it is an unprecedented and note worthy feature of this symphony) - I did also mention structure and form as well. In response to your other post, I do think that the 5th particularly is weighted towards the finale - but generally as Michael pointed out the classical symphony is weighted towards the first movement.

Also noteworthy for its length and complexity (chronologically speaking) was (is?) the 'Eroica' symphony, do you not think? As to the 5th, it is certainly 'weighted towards' the finale in that it provides that perfect example of 'fulfilment' in cyclical terms. As to the Pastoral (6th), I'm still not sure about it's weighting; it continues to intrigue me from that point of view (amongst others!).

[Quijote]

Also, you have the ambiguity of modality in the opening measures; is it major or is it minor, etc.

I know what you mean Sorrano. But we must not confuse major/minor (tonality) with modality. Sorry to be pedantic, but you know me by now!

[Peter]

Never mind the quality, feel the width, Peter? Joking apart, for me 'structural weighting' is not solely about length.

Indeed (though it is an unprecedented and note worthy feature of this symphony) - I did also mention structure and form as well. In response to your other post, I do think that the 5th particularly is weighted towards the finale - but generally as Michael pointed out the classical symphony is weighted towards the first movement.

[Sorrano]

As to 'conflict', this is I feel inherent to the dialectics of sonata form, which is all about 'centres of tonal gravity', and indeed how sonata form 'works'. Part of why we feel there to be this feeling of conflict that you describe in the 1st movement of the Ninth in particular is (in my view; I don't like being categoric) Beethoven's 'avoidance' of using the dominant key, emphasing instead the tonal area of B-flat (the flattened sixth, a major third down from D) and for me seems to 'push against' what we have normally come to expect in sonata-allegro form. I also tentatively suggest that this relationship of the third (e.g. D-B flat) is fundamental to B's writing (cf the Hammerklavier, Piano concerto 3 [1st movt. C minor, 2nd movt. E major and so on) and would be worth exploring further.

Also, you have the ambiguity of modality in the opening measures; is it major or is it minor, etc.

[Quijote]

Well none of those finales are comparable to the 9ths in terms of construction or length which lasts almost as long as the 1st and 2nd movements combined - this is unprecedented in the classical symphony and clearly there has been a seismic change in approach to form and scale that was to influence Mahler in particular.

Never mind the quality, feel the width, Peter? Joking apart, for me 'structural weighting' is not solely about length.

[Quijote]

Don't forget the 5th Symphony in this context. Even the rhythmic 3 shorts, one long are prevalent in the finale. While the 1st movement is certainly very dramatic, it cannot compare to the conclusion. And then, what about the 6th symphony?

Good question Sorrano, which I also asked Peter before I read your posting. As a fellow Bruckner fan, I feel sure you and I could discuss sonata form as used by our dear Anton : I'm thinking primarily about his use of so-called 'distorted sonata form'. More on this later - I need time to order my thoughts.

[Quijote]

In the case of the 9th I think Beethoven really arrives at the symphony in 2 parts (which of course influenced Liszt and Mahler) with the finale (part 2) forming a summation of the previous movements, and in this sense it has assumed an unprecedented importance.

Yes, I think you have it right there, Peter : the symphony does indeed strike us a bipartite work. In light of this comment ('structural weighting'), what do you feel about the 5th and 6th symphonies (perhaps even the 7th)?

[Peter]

Don't forget the 5th Symphony in this context. Even the rhythmic 3 shorts, one long are prevalent in the finale. While the 1st movement is certainly very dramatic, it cannot compare to the conclusion. And then, what about the 6th symphony?

Well none of those finales are comparable to the 9ths in terms of construction or length which lasts almost as long as the 1st and 2nd movements combined - this is unprecedented in the classical symphony and clearly there has been a seismic change in approach to form and scale that was to influence Mahler in particular.

[Quijote]

Peter, I'm not sure how you mean "the main weight". In the case of the ninth, the opening movement is one of despair, struggle, conflict, all the way to the almost diabolical sounding swirlings of the last measures, while the 4th mvmt. is an expression of personal and perhaps even cosmic joy. Do you mean by "weight" the "theme" of the music as I've described above, or something else?
Al

Hello al1432. Whilst I may concur with your choice of nouns describing how you experience the 1st movement (despair, struggle ...), it must be pointed out that this is not necessarily how all listeners respond to the work. Other commentators - most infamously musicologist Susan McClary who hears the work as embodying 19th century male attitudes to women, with certain pasages expressing male rage verging on rape - may not interpret the work as we do, and so I feel we should try to avoid making a priori assumptions.

As to 'conflict', this is I feel inherent to the dialectics of sonata form, which is all about 'centres of tonal gravity', and indeed how sonata form 'works'. Part of why we feel there to be this feeling of conflict that you describe in the 1st movement of the Ninth in particular is (in my view; I don't like being categoric) Beethoven's 'avoidance' of using the dominant key, emphasing instead the tonal area of B-flat (the flattened sixth, a major third down from D) and for me seems to 'push against' what we have normally come to expect in sonata-allegro form. I also tentatively suggest that this relationship of the third (e.g. D-B flat) is fundamental to B's writing (cf the Hammerklavier, Piano concerto 3 [1st movt. C minor, 2nd movt. E major and so on) and would be worth exploring further.

As to your question about 'weight', I think Peter has aptly summed it up, and I too made a similar point above. The issue of 'structural weighting' is also especially pertinent in the late quartets, so perhaps we can discuss that too at a later point, if you wish.

[Sorrano]

I was referring to the classical forms in general that tend to place the main drama and thrust of musical argument in the 1st movement with a lighter, more relaxed finale. Of course that is a huge generalisation and there are exceptions. In the case of the 9th I think Beethoven really arrives at the symphony in 2 parts (which of course influenced Liszt and Mahler) with the finale (part 2) forming a summation of the previous movements, and in this sense it has assumed an unprecedented importance.

Don't forget the 5th Symphony in this context. Even the rhythmic 3 shorts, one long are prevalent in the finale. While the 1st movement is certainly very dramatic, it cannot compare to the conclusion. And then, what about the 6th symphony?

[Peter]

Peter, I'm not sure how you mean "the main weight". In the case of the ninth, the opening movement is one of despair, struggle, conflict, all the way to the almost diabolical sounding swirlings of the last measures, while the 4th mvmt. is an expression of personal and perhaps even cosmic joy. Do you mean by "weight" the "theme" of the music as I've described above, or something else?
Al

I was referring to the classical forms in general that tend to place the main drama and thrust of musical argument in the 1st movement with a lighter, more relaxed finale. Of course that is a huge generalisation and there are exceptions. In the case of the 9th I think Beethoven really arrives at the symphony in 2 parts (which of course influenced Liszt and Mahler) with the finale (part 2) forming a summation of the previous movements, and in this sense it has assumed an unprecedented importance.

[al1432]

Yes Michael and I think you have a point in drawing attention to the main weight in the classical forms generally being placed on the first movement -however I think the 9th symphony is a marked departure from that.

Peter, I'm not sure how you mean "the main weight". In the case of the ninth, the opening movement is one of despair, struggle, conflict, all the way to the almost diabolical sounding swirlings of the last measures, while the 4th mvmt. is an expression of personal and perhaps even cosmic joy. Do you mean by "weight" the "theme" of the music as I've described above, or something else?
Al

[al1432]

Perhaps he was, even at that late stage of his compositional life, still thinking of his audience?
However, in dealing with Beethoven, you cannot come to easy conclusions. Opus 130 originally ended with the “Grosse Fuge”, audience fatigue or not. But he did replace it ………….

The Grosse Fugue, difficult enough to understand here in the 21st century, was likely all but unintelligible to audiences in the early 19th century. For which reason, whether LvB consented to remove it from the Opus 130 or not, the fact is that he wrote it and had it published, which says to me that he was not overly concerned with audience reaction, be it fatigue or otherwise.
Al