Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Peter]

I don't think so - Italian opera was the rage.

[DavidO]

The Turkish style was also very popular in Vienna and had been for a long time. Mozart was among many composers who employed it. This was due to the siege of Vienna by the Turks many years earlier. It represented exoticism to the nth degree as well as the military connotations. Thus the "Rondo: alla Turca" in keyboard sonata K 331, and indeed, "The Abduction from the Seraglio".

Was the Turkish style still this popular in Vienna in 1823-24?

[Phil Leeds]

Great pictures gprengel. Thanks for sharing them

[gprengel]

Regarding our discussion on the 4th mov. on the 9th I was reminded of my visit to Beethoven's house in baden where he composed the symphony. It was so funny there to see the notes of the main theme and "Brüder, seid umschlungen"
written on the window shutter. Beethoven wrote on there when he was in lack of paper, neighours who saw this came and bought the window shutter from the owner of the house!!

see the picture I took there:

http://gerdprengel.de/vienna.html

[Joy]

To me Beethoven's use of a "military" march here makes very much sense, for the words used here speak of a "hero who went out to win", so what would fit better here??
I love this march but especially I love it because it opens the door to this awesome fugatto which follows! Again another variation of the theme of joy. But what a dramatic gesture, it makes me tremble!!!

Gerd

Very nicely described gprengel. My sentiments exactly!

[Gurn Blanston]

That puts it well: a devastating puncturing device. The fugue that follows is merely ... devastating.

Opuses 76 & 113 also employ Turkish style & orchestration, with piccolo & percussion popular in the Turkish bands. I think even the König Stephan incidental music contains a segment in that Turkish style. Here's a hunch I have (without any basis of evidence): the Turkish mode would have been popular later in the Rhineland than in the cosmopolitan center of Vienna. Could Beethoven have been fondly looking back to his Bonn days?

The Turkish style was also very popular in Vienna and had been for a long time. Mozart was among many composers who employed it. This was due to the siege of Vienna by the Turks many years earlier. It represented exoticism to the nth degree as well as the military connotations. Thus the "Rondo: alla Turca" in keyboard sonata K 331, and indeed, "The Abduction from the Seraglio".



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Now playing:
BWV 1004 Violin Partita #2 in d - Itzhak Perlman - BWV 1004 Violin Partita #2 in d-pt.2-Corrente

[gprengel]

To me Beethoven's use of a "military" march here makes very much sense, for the words used here speak of a "hero who went out to win", so what would fit better here??
I love this march but especially I love it because it opens the door to this awesome fugatto which follows! Again another variation of the theme of joy. But what a dramatic gesture, it makes me tremble!!!

Gerd

[Peter]

IMHO the entire 9th rests entirely on the massively solid foundation of its first movement. the rest of the music is no match in contrast to the surging dynamics of the first movement.

Does anyone have anything solid to say about those opening crashing chords... and that thunderous musical explosion in the middle of the first movement?

Can anyone possibly fathom the imagery described in that music?

I agree about the mighty first movement but I wouldn't be so dismissive of the other movements!

[DavidO]

I think everyone's about half right with this. The march is a devastating puncturing device, breaking up the emotional overload before we are subconsciously primed for even more intensity.

Michael said it - LvB is almost laughing as we stand and watch in awe...

That puts it well: a devastating puncturing device. The fugue that follows is merely ... devastating.

Opuses 76 & 113 also employ Turkish style & orchestration, with piccolo & percussion popular in the Turkish bands. I think even the König Stephan incidental music contains a segment in that Turkish style. Here's a hunch I have (without any basis of evidence): the Turkish mode would have been popular later in the Rhineland than in the cosmopolitan center of Vienna. Could Beethoven have been fondly looking back to his Bonn days?

[lvbfanatic]

and what about those first crashing chords?

IMHO the entire 9th rests entirely on the massively solid foundation of its first movement. the rest of the music is no match in contrast to the surging dynamics of the first movement.

Does anyone have anything solid to say about those opening crashing chords... and that thunderous musical explosion in the middle of the first movement?

Can anyone possibly fathom the imagery described in that music?

[PDG]

I think everyone's about half right with this. The march is a devastating puncturing device, breaking up the emotional overload before we are subconsciously primed for even more intensity.

Michael said it - LvB is almost laughing as we stand and watch in awe...

[al1432]

the march (which is simply a variation of the theme) provides an almost operatic interlude before the double fugue and a dramatic contrast to the preceding episode.

I tend to agree with you on this, Peter. After reading those articles I naturally played the movement in order to refresh my memory, and to my ears at least, it seems like the march, even IF its intent was "militaristic" (a big "IF"), is ultimately totally subsumed by the ensuing return in full force of the "joy" theme. Seemed to make perfect sense to me, not as the introduction of a military agenda, but as a contrasting of issues within the human condition.

[Sorrano]

I tend to agree, Peter, with you on that. I feel that the movement is a theme and variation format and the march, as you say, is a variation. If I had my notes from the class I might be able to communicate the idea a bit better, but it's been a few years and I don't recall them specifically.

[Peter]

The musicologist where I studied music taught that one of the reasons for using the Turkish March was to give the audience something familiar to hear with all the newness of a choral symphony. The very nature of the work was so vastly different than anything that had come before; even the first three movements are unlike anything else that Beethoven had composed. The Turkish March, then would represent something that would enable the audience to get a hold of that was somewhat familiar.

Nice idea Sorrano, but I don't buy it - after all there was nothing much familiar about having a Turkish march in a symphony! I don't think for one moment Beethoven was thinking along anything other than artistic lines - the march (which is simply a variation of the theme) provides an almost operatic interlude before the double fugue and a dramatic contrast to the preceding episode.

[Sorrano]

The musicologist where I studied music taught that one of the reasons for using the Turkish March was to give the audience something familiar to hear with all the newness of a choral symphony. The very nature of the work was so vastly different than anything that had come before; even the first three movements are unlike anything else that Beethoven had composed. The Turkish March, then would represent something that would enable the audience to get a hold of that was somewhat familiar.