Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Quijote]

And as we are on the subject of B’s Ninth : I live in France and so I can’t find the BBC Classical Music magazine easily here. Anyway, a good friend of mine sent me a copy of a CD that they enclosed with a recent issue (November 2007 ?). It was a recording of the Ninth (2007 Swansea Festival) with the BBC National Orchestra and Chorus of Wales conducted by François-Xavier Roth.

I have only had time to listen to the first movement and my comments are as follows :

First off, I was reasonably happy with the performance overall, though I have a few reservations. It certainly is a brisk and ‘crisp’ interpretation, and therein resides the weakness perhaps. It strikes me sometimes as too literal a reading of the score, with slightly over-exaggerated dynamics with little nuancing. The tempo really ‘pushes’ and consequently the phrasing isn’t allowed to ‘breathe’. Some of the dramatic gestures are also ‘thrown away’ too quickly, and therefore not so convincing in their impact. I also have the feeling that the orchestra is hacking through the score, a little too much ‘chop – chop’. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that it gives the effect of being ‘rushed’, but perhaps that could be inevitable if one follows B’s metronome markings too literally, though this isn’t the impression I got with the Norrington version.

For me, there could be one particular HIP aspect on this CD : this is in the overall orchestral texture, where the brass section really seems to dominate. At first I thought this could be due to microphone placement, but I’m not sure on that point. I have no idea if the strings are at full mainstream compliment or using much reduced forces, which would account for the feeling of ‘over heavy’ brass. Other commentators have alluded to the fact that the brass and wind sections in Beethoven’s day would have had more ‘presence’ in the overall texture, so perhaps this is what the conductor is purposely aiming at. Personally, I would have preferred less of that, as it (the brass) sometimes seemed too aggressive.

As for the strings, I quite liked their articulation in general, though I felt that the bass parts were sometimes a little too muddy (unclear), though this could be due to my stereo system, my ears not being so young as they once were, or poor microphone placement.

Just one final point concerning this movement : is the orchestra not in fact using period (‘authentic’) instruments? This is not a problem per se, of course, as mainstream orchestras can play under HIP influences. It’s just that to my ears I cannot detect that typical ‘flavour’ of period instruments here on this CD.


Has anyone else on this forum had the opportunity to listen to this performance? And what would your comments be?

[Quijote]

I look forward to all your promised 'more of this laters' of which you are accumulating a great score!

So, let me finally try to address some of the issues raised in this very interesting thread (that started off with a question about the Turkish March in the finale of B’s Ninth symphony. How far we have travelled from that original posting!).

Firstly, the use of the mediant as a substitute dominant (Charles Rosen) and the use of ‘third-relationships’ (Sorrano) : Beethoven did on occasion use ‘third-relationships’ for the second thematic group in sonata-form movements (in the exposition), including other closely related (third related) keys such as the relative minor (e.g. op. 29), the mediant minor (op. 31 n° 1), mediant major (the ‘Waldstein’), and submediant major (the ‘Hammerklavier op. 106), and in certain passages (if my memory serves me correctly) in the 3rd piano concerto. Schiff also has pointed up this fact in his recital-lectures, whereby the subject and harmonic plan (in the Hammerklavier) are constructed by means of a chain of descending thirds.

As one commentator has pointed out, it is in the piano sonatas of the 1800-1802 period where the “novelty of concept” first became evident in the key plan, in particular the first movement of the G major sonata op. 31, n° 1, where the second group is not in the dominant (as normally expected) but the mediant. As a further point of interest, B’s pupil Czerny relates B’s statement as having found a “new path” to precisely the op. 31 sonatas.

In any case, to return the Ninth, it is clear that the third-relations picked up by Sorrano (see above) have clear precedents. The third-relations are quite clear in the Adagio movement (analysed as being in sonata-rondo form), i.e. B-flat – D – G // E-flat – C-flat // B-flat - E-flat // B-flat – D-flat – B-flat. Sorrano has also noted the third-relation in the overall key structure of the symphony as a whole : D minor (1st movement), F major ((2nd), B-flat major (3rd) and D minor – D major (4th). And what is significant in that, if anything? One commentator (D B Levy, in Beethoven : The Ninth Symphony, Schirmer Books, New York, 1995) considers that B’s choice of mediant substitution in the first movement works both locally and as a deliberate choice for the overall design of the entire symphony. What is important however, is that the listener feels more that the mood of the music has changed, and not that the tonality is “wrong”.

Leaving aside these dry academic considerations for the moment, what is more relevant (I feel) is what these harmonic innovations (in High Classical terms) signify. B’s symphonic, piano sonata and quartet developments are distinguished by their relation to the Classical style ‘personified’ by Mozart and Haydn in particular, especially the way that the so-called sonata style is extended to the whole work and not just the first movement. What makes these harmonic ‘deviations’ from the classical ‘norm’ so striking? It is that Beethoven had the insight (his genius) to get under the form down to what one commentator has termed the “gestural level” below. Beethoven had perfectly understood the “musical rhetoric” of his time, and his adventurous harmonic language makes his sonata forms seem so much less “formalistic”. Is it this too, as Tovey felt, that lends his music an “ethical aura”? I am reluctant to use such a term (apt as it seems; I also try to avoid words and phrases such as ‘transcendent, higher truths and so on...), but there is certainly something more ‘psychological’ at play in the music of Beethoven manifested in his manipulations of classical sonata form.

This for me, then, is what is important about mediants etc. I am perfectly happy to discuss these issues from a purely musical perspective, but these days I prefer a more semiotic approach.

[Johan]

Let us look at the Choral Fantasy opus 80 which was a kind of testing ground for the choral movement of the 9th symphony. There is a section with a designation "Marcia, assai vivace." No one asked, "What was Beethoven thinking?" here!

Yes! I was yesterday listening to this fantasia in c-minor. The words "Wenn sich Lieb(e) und Kraft vermählen, Lohnt dem Menschen Göttergunst" i.e. "When love and strength are united..." speak of strength. I don't know if Beethoven took this literally in his music - the finale is though very lovely and powerful. Here it seems to be rather joyous finale (my subjective view).

[Hofrat]

Let us look at the Choral Fantasy opus 80 which was a kind of testing ground for the choral movement of the 9th symphony. There is a section with a designation "Marcia, assai vivace." No one asked, "What was Beethoven thinking?" here!

[Johan]

This symphony's finale have always been problematic - like every great piece of music is. How represent the score?
The finale is very long. The joy-theme goes on and with t i m e becomes f o r c e d. Therefore march-music. But of course joy is also at the same t i m e spreading, conquering, coming out by the sheer f o r c e of itself.
This is my subjective view of the turkish march.

[Quijote]

Peter, Chris and Sorrano : I'm not dodging the issues you have raised, I simply need more time to research and reflect on questions of mediant substitutions, B's use of of the third, harpsichords, HIP (historically informed performance) practice and so on. They are rather wide subjects that need careful consideration and I don't have the time right now. But I will get back to you.

[Quijote]

[...] I look forward to all your promised 'more of this laters' of which you are accumulating a great score!

Patience, dear boy ... all in good time.

[Peter]

I have a lot of time for Rosen, but he is not the only 'boy on the block'. Such concepts were never formalised by Beethoven, though I agree (in formalist terms) that the use of the mediant acts (in certain cases) as a substitute dominant; but this comes with certain caveats, one of which concerns B's extension of sonata form. More of this later, when I have time.

Absolutely, indeed sonata form itself wasn't described until after all the classical composers were dead. However Beethoven as master of form and tonality was perfectly aware of what he was doing even if he didn't describe it in those terms. It is in the purpose of modulation rather than the actual modulations themselves (as well as the importance of the tonic) that mark out the differences between the Classical and Romantic composers.

I look forward to all your promised 'more of this laters' of which you are accumulating a great score!

[Sorrano]

I have a lot of time for Rosen, but he is not the only 'boy on the block'. Such concepts were never formalised by Beethoven, though I agree (in formalist terms) that the use of the mediant acts (in certain cases) as a substitute dominant; but this comes with certain caveats, one of which concerns B's extension of sonata form. More of this later, when I have time.

Curiosity as to what your take, particularly in this 3rd movement has me!

[Sorrano]

My question was rhetorical, but I too hear (talking about Bruckner now) moods, colours and 'impressions' (images?). My point was about so-called universal sound symbols in general, and especially in WAM (western art music) : are there musical gestures that convey a shared 'imagery'? And beyond simple mimesis?

The impressions are not something I can translate into any kind of imagery. It's all very abstract to me. Sometimes the impressions are close to imagery or, at least, geometric shapes. Sometimes I have impressions of movement, as if in a journey--such things as that.

I think that basic imagery, if you will, can be experienced--feelings or visions of triumph, of despair, and etc. But beyond that it is difficult for one to explain to another in understandable terms exactly what was experienced.

[Quijote]

Charles Rosen deals with this excellently and explains that they act as 'substitute dominants' in Beethoven - i.e they serve the same purpose of increasing the harmonic tension as opposed to weakening it as the subdominant does.

I have a lot of time for Rosen, but he is not the only 'boy on the block'. Such concepts were never formalised by Beethoven, though I agree (in formalist terms) that the use of the mediant acts (in certain cases) as a substitute dominant; but this comes with certain caveats, one of which concerns B's extension of sonata form. More of this later, when I have time.

[Quijote]

In speaking of modality/tonality with Beethoven's 9th, I find interesting the key structures of the movements (d minor, F Major, B-flat Major, and D Major). Having rambled through the slow movement of the 3rd a few times (piano) I see a continuation of the 3rd in modulations. Had I more time I would delve into each of the later symphonies to explore the chordal relationships; I think Beethoven became fascinated by the tonic - mediant, tonic - submediant progressions as he developed his musical language. So, what was he thinking?

I will come back to you Sorrano. You too have 'picked up' on this relationship of the 3rd. I will have more to say about this later.

[Quijote]

Rarely do I get such imagery in the music. Mostly mood and colors and often vague impressions that I simply cannot put in writing. What I can say about the 1st movement of the 9th (Beethoven's) is that it grabs me in the gut and gives me a good wrenching! Oddly, I get a similar reaction from the 1st of Bruckner's 9th.

My question was rhetorical, but I too hear (talking about Bruckner now) moods, colours and 'impressions' (images?). My point was about so-called universal sound symbols in general, and especially in WAM (western art music) : are there musical gestures that convey a shared 'imagery'? And beyond simple mimesis?

[Peter]

The modulations in the 3rd movement do not feel like substitute dominants to me at all but then it may be that I do not understand the term "substitute dominant" very well. There is something in particular that I found interesting with this movement and that is the repetition of the number 3 throughout. After playing through this a couple of times (by no means a detailed analysis! ) I observed the following: Modulations from B-flat to D and back again (up and down a 3rd), B-flat to G (down a 3rd), G to E-flat (down a 3rd), E-flat to C-flat (down a 3rd), and frequent parallel 3rds and 6ths (inverted 3rd). The slow movement of a symphony was typically the 2nd in a classical symphony; Beethoven put it as the 3rd. They symphony is the 9th, and 9 is 3 squared.

These are rudimentary observations; I would that I had time to delve more into this to see if there is something more with the relationship of the number 3 in the movement. I do not claim that this is anything more than coincidences, but I do find it quite interesting. It does suggest to me the possibility that Beethoven's motivations with the modulation scheme had more meaning than substitute dominants.

I'm not sure about the numbers game as it is possible to find all sorts of coincidences in many works this way. The point about the substitute dominants is that they act and serve the same purpose as the dominant would in classical forms - to increase the tension away from the tonic as opposed to relaxing it as in found in many Romantic works. I think in both secondary sections of the 3rd movement there is an increase in tension, not a weakening.

[Sorrano]

Rosen concludes the opposite - "It is tempting to think of Beethoven's substitute dominants as having something in common with the harmonic structures of the Romantic period, but his harmonic freedom is of a different order and nature."

He contrast this with Schumann and Chopin - specifically not the works that use sonata form but the true Romantic forms of Fantasy and Ballade where the tension is weakened by the secondary subdominant tonality. "No comparable subdominant relationship can be found in any work of Beethoven (except those based on ternary ABA or minuet and trio form). His expansion of the large scale harmonic range took plave within the limits of the classical language, and never infringed on the tonic-dominant polarity or the classical movement towards a greater tension away from the tonic. These secondary tonalities to his work, mediants and submediants, function within the large structure as true dominants. In addition, Beethoven always prepares their appearance so that they seem almost as closely related to the tonic as the dominant is, so that the modulation creates a dissonance of greater power and excitement than the more usual dominant."

The modulations in the 3rd movement do not feel like substitute dominants to me at all but then it may be that I do not understand the term "substitute dominant" very well. There is something in particular that I found interesting with this movement and that is the repetition of the number 3 throughout. After playing through this a couple of times (by no means a detailed analysis! ) I observed the following: Modulations from B-flat to D and back again (up and down a 3rd), B-flat to G (down a 3rd), G to E-flat (down a 3rd), E-flat to C-flat (down a 3rd), and frequent parallel 3rds and 6ths (inverted 3rd). The slow movement of a symphony was typically the 2nd in a classical symphony; Beethoven put it as the 3rd. They symphony is the 9th, and 9 is 3 squared.

These are rudimentary observations; I would that I had time to delve more into this to see if there is something more with the relationship of the number 3 in the movement. I do not claim that this is anything more than coincidences, but I do find it quite interesting. It does suggest to me the possibility that Beethoven's motivations with the modulation scheme had more meaning than substitute dominants.