Turkish March in 4th Mvmt of 9th Symphony - What was Beethoven Thinking?

[Quijote]

I suggest socialist 'utopia' had nothing to do with it, freedom from political oppression everything.

I edited my original posting by mistake. If my memory serves me correctly, I said that Peter's comment is just one interpretation, and that the history of reception of B's "Ninth" is rife with differeing ideological standpoints.

Who can say if one interpretation is the right one? Not me.

[Quijote]

The ode was originally conceived by Schiller in 1785 to freedom, not joy (as Bernstein performed it in 1989) and was coming very much from enlightenment and masonic ideals. I suggest socialist 'utopia' had nothing to do with it, freedom from political oppression everything.

Peter's comments above reflect the confusion surrounding the original words of Schiller's Ode that persist to this day. Schiller's poem An die Freude [To Joy] was penned in 1785 and published the following year in the review Rheinische Thalia. The first line of the original version is as follows :

Freude, schöner Götterfunken [Joy, lovely divine spark, ...],

Which contradicts Peter's assertion above. What Peter is perhaps confusing is Schiller's drama Don Carlos, which does embody the concept of freedom [Freiheit]. However, the word Freiheit does not occur in the Ode to Joy, and as one commentator has pointed out, "there is no solid basis for the hypothesis that the poem is a politically 'readjusted' version of an earlier ode entitled An die Freiheit [Ode to Freedom]".

That the poem, as Peter puts it, "was coming very much from enlightenment and masonic ideals" is certainly the case, though principally considered at the time of publication from a more traditional religious viewpoint.

[Quijote]

Nice idea Sorrano, but I don't buy it - after all there was nothing much familiar about having a Turkish march in a symphony! I don't think for one moment Beethoven was thinking along anything other than artistic lines - the march (which is simply a variation of the theme) provides an almost operatic interlude before the double fugue and a dramatic contrast to the preceding episode.

Beethoven only "thinking along [...] artistic lines ..."? I think that Beethoven's setting of Schiller's "Ode to Joy" manifests many things that go beyond artistic / aesthetic choices, Peter.

[Quijote]

Honestly I think the march is splendid and highly original in its context.

I wonder if the 'Turkish March' is really as original as you think. The use of 'martial music' by Beethoven has its precedents, notably The Glorious Moment, op. 136 (with its alla turca section that includes triangle, cymbals and bass drum) and of course the infamous 'Battle Symphony'.

[Quijote]

Yes, but we're discussing the 9th! perhaps we should have a new topic on the symphonies? I'd be interested to hear your comments on the uniqueness of the 6th as well.

Perhaps I will take up Peter on his suggestion : a new posting on the symphonies, and to start with : the Sixth (Pastoral). Please see new thread.

[Peter]

Our ears are not as developed as those of the music lovers of the 18th century. They could hear these tonalities. That is one of the reasons there are repeats in the exposition section of sonata form (and often a second repeat of the developement/recapitulation section). The repeat allowed the listener another chance to hear the tonalities and the modulations between them.

I think so Hofrat - an earlier example of this was mentioned on the recent program on sacred music where it was pointed out that the chant melodies used by Perotin and Leonin in their works of the early 12th century would have been known to the public.

I think there are several reasons for this - firstly the importance ascribed to music since the ancient Greeks is no longer the case and secondly we suffer from over saturation of background music which encourages people simply not to listen!

[Sorrano]

Note that, in the 3rd movement, the principle key changes are also enhanced by a change of the meter. It is interesting to me that the meter changes from a duple to a triple meter (Sorry if I'm using the wrong nomenclature here, I'm a bit rushed for time). Again there is that "3" appearing. Now, whether all this is coincidental, I don't know, but I think not. An architect of Beethoven's stature is not going to put one note or nuance in a compositions without it having it's purpose. In looking at the symphony as a whole, I do not see a Classical symphony at all, nor do I see (hear?) a Romantic symphony, either. It is simply, A Beethoven Symphony. This transcends the time period.

[Quijote]

And what about Owen Jander's "Hades" thesis for B's 4th piano concerto, the second movement? I believe we touched on this question elsewhere on the forum, but I'll be damned if can find it!

Anyway, as Peter has so aptly mentioned, it is hard for us to reconstruct the "context" of listening prevalent in B's time. And as a corollary I wonder how many 'references' are missed because of the lapse of time between then and now. How 'shocking' or 'surprising' were these manipulations of tonality in the early 1800s? I would like to have your comments and thoughts as this is an area of research that particularly engages me.

[Quijote]

It's very hard these days for us to hear it as intended for several reasons - the works are so familiar and we know the subsequent developments in music that have lessened the impact. How many people are aware that the finale of the 4th concerto for example starts in the wrong key - a trick Haydn was also fond of?

At last! A true 'HIP' question. How I would give my right arm to hear in the way Peter alludes to above. A case for 'HIL'? (HIL = historically informed listening).

[Hofrat]

Our ears are not as developed as those of the music lovers of the 18th century. They could hear these tonalities. That is one of the reasons there are repeats in the exposition section of sonata form (and often a second repeat of the developement/recapitulation section). The repeat allowed the listener another chance to hear the tonalities and the modulations between them.

[Peter]

I am not sure if I should be flattered or annoyed that Rosen points out the same examples. That Beethoven does not break with classical tradition in his use of mediant substitutes for the 'usual' dominant tonality is of course one way LvB pushes against the prevailing practice (not that it would have been perceived as such), and a good example of how he subverted expectations. All fine and good. Sorrano however has raised a good question : do we hear it that way? How do these key centres strike us if we are not able to retain 'long term' recall? As a corollary : why have certain commentators pointed up the 'off-key' feeling in the recapitulation to the 4th piano concerto, or the sudden D major tonality in the Ninth symphony (1st movement, bar 300 onward)?

It's very hard these days for us to hear it as intended for several reasons - the works are so familiar and we know the subsequent developments in music that have lessened the impact. How many people are aware that the finale of the 4th concerto for example starts in the wrong key - a trick Haydn was also fond of?

[Peter]

It is my understanding that while the rules for classical sonata form movements are rather strict and clear for the major key, they are not so strict and clear for the minor key. Beethoven's minor suit movements tended to drift to the major. Look at Beethoven's other minor suit symphony, the 5th. At the recapitulation of the 2nd theme (bar 306), Beethoven is in C-major, and in the coda he also slipped into the major. Since the 1st movement of the 9th symphony is a minor suit movement, it does not surprise me that we find Beethoven in the major key. It would surprise me if we did not!

Beethoven does this much earlier in the C minor trio Op.1 ending in C major.
I'm not aware of any theoretical difference in minor key sonata form - however we have to realise that these rules were written down after the event and that Haydn and Mozart frequently disobey them!

[Hofrat]

It is my understanding that while the rules for classical sonata form movements are rather strict and clear for the major key, they are not so strict and clear for the minor key. Beethoven's minor suit movements tended to drift to the major. Look at Beethoven's other minor suit symphony, the 5th. At the recapitulation of the 2nd theme (bar 306), Beethoven is in C-major, and in the coda he also slipped into the major. Since the 1st movement of the 9th symphony is a minor suit movement, it does not surprise me that we find Beethoven in the major key. It would surprise me if we did not!

[Quijote]

Well Rosen points out those examples himself, but the point he makes is that in all major classical works there is an increase in tension with the secondary tonality and in this Beethoven does not break with classical tradition - with the Romantics there is a relaxation with the secondary tonality.

I am not sure if I should be flattered or annoyed that Rosen points out the same examples. That Beethoven does not break with classical tradition in his use of mediant substitutes for the 'usual' dominant tonality is of course one way LvB pushes against the prevailing practice (not that it would have been perceived as such), and a good example of how he subverted expectations. All fine and good. Sorrano however has raised a good question : do we hear it that way? How do these key centres strike us if we are not able to retain 'long term' recall? As a corollary : why have certain commentators pointed up the 'off-key' feeling in the recapitulation to the 4th piano concerto, or the sudden D major tonality in the Ninth symphony (1st movement, bar 300 onward)?

[Peter]

Firstly, the use of the mediant as a substitute dominant (Charles Rosen) and the use of ‘third-relationships’ (Sorrano) : Beethoven did on occasion use ‘third-relationships’ for the second thematic group in sonata-form movements (in the exposition), including other closely related (third related) keys such as the relative minor (e.g. op. 29), the mediant minor (op. 31 n° 1), mediant major (the ‘Waldstein’), and submediant major (the ‘Hammerklavier op. 106), and in certain passages (if my memory serves me correctly) in the 3rd piano concerto. Schiff also has pointed up this fact in his recital-lectures, whereby the subject and harmonic plan (in the Hammerklavier) are constructed by means of a chain of descending thirds.

As one commentator has pointed out, it is in the piano sonatas of the 1800-1802 period where the “novelty of concept” first became evident in the key plan, in particular the first movement of the G major sonata op. 31, n° 1, where the second group is not in the dominant (as normally expected) but the mediant. As a further point of interest, B’s pupil Czerny relates B’s statement as having found a “new path” to precisely the op. 31 sonatas.

Well Rosen points out those examples himself, but the point he makes is that in all major classical works there is an increase in tension with the secondary tonality and in this Beethoven does not break with classical tradition - with the Romantics there is a relaxation with the secondary tonality.