A Breath of fresh air

[Quijote]

I suspect that the rich "help" the poor for two reasons:
1. They want to be 'popular' or 'liked' among the common man, to avoid number 2, thus:
2. They offer their crumbs so that should the 'Revolution' be just around the corner, they will be spared.
They won't. Nor should they be...

Not sure about that, PDG. I'm sure we have all read of the UK couple who recently won 161 million €s on the "Super European Lottery" or something. What wou you (plural) do with such a sum, if were you so lucky?
For me : buy a good-sized house here in Alsace; one modest summer home in Spain; one new car (nothing ostentatious, i.e. not a Rolls Royce - far too vulgar); a Steinway; a new 'cello, tailor-made to my requirements; a million €s each to close family members (let's say 20). That still leaves probably about 130 million €s to play with. What on earth would I do with such a remaining sum? OK, I'd probably set up a fund at a couple of Universities, help finance needed infrastructure projects in poor countries (a hospital, perhaps?), maybe "adopt" several children (in the sense of providing funds for their education and living expenses in situ).
Anyway, as the dictum goes : "you can't take it with you" when the time comes to shuffle off the mortal coil.

[Peter]

The problem is not that we don't have enough resources for everyone. We do, and many more. The question is whether or not everyone will share them fairly. But that's always the problem. It is not a high population that causes poverty. I'm confident in our capacity to deal with a far, far higher population on earth. What I'm concerned about is the people who want to "control" the population by killing off the sick, the elderly, the young, and the poor. The potential atrocities committed in the name of population control terrify me.

Chris I can't agree - just take the destruction of the rain forests. They cover only 5% of the Earth's surface, but contain more than half of all the plant and animal species on the planet. Every year, 15 million hectares of tropical forests are cleared. At that pace, almost all the world's rainforests will be lost in 50 years. It is estimated that 137 species of plants and animals are wiped out every day!

With the terrible poverty, the famine, lack of clean water and appalling social conditions that billions already experience I'm puzzled as to how you imagine not only that we are coping, but that we will cope with an extra 3 billion in 30 years time, especially as most of those will be in the poorest countries that are already struggling?

I'm not advocating a policy of 'killing people off'! What is needed is education - it has been shown that where people are better educated they voluntarily choose to have smaller families.

[Preston]

Anyway, I apologize. I am very confused.

[Preston]

I KNOW FAR TOO LITTLE. REALLY NEXT TO NOTHING.

I KNOW FAR TOO LITTLE. REALLY NEXT TO NOTHING.

I am wrong. I am being too stereotypical, I think. The rich do take more than their share, it seems. Though, that does not make them worse, BY ANY MEANS, than some of the poor. I think things are far more diverse than stereotyping rich and poor. I really need to think on this more, much more. It really comes down to the individual. It does seem wrong to take those amounts of money, though, there are sins worse than money.

Please excuse these videos. Though this is what I am talking about.

HOW CAN THIS NONSENSE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCkNxuepBW8

BE BETTER THAN THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBepTorG7IU

IT CANNOT.

[Preston]

The problem is not that we don't have enough resources for everyone. We do, and many more. The question is whether or not everyone will share them fairly. But that's always the problem. It is not a high population that causes poverty. I'm confident in our capacity to deal with a far, far higher population on earth. What I'm concerned about is the people who want to "control" the population by killing off the sick, the elderly, the young, and the poor. The potential atrocities committed in the name of population control terrify me.

Chris, I have heard from philanthropists that the Earth can sustain around 8 billion 'overall'. Though, I completely disagree with that. Resources are running dry. The oceans, animals, plant-life, etc. are dying and being wiped out. Species are becoming extinct. The Earth is dying.

Then, you have to think about over great periods of time. I think around 2 billion, though when living with less consumption and less pollution, the planet could live until the end of its days (which I think is around 5 billion more years!) The number 2 billion is a completely astronomical number, unimaginable, incomprehensible, etc. because it is so, so very much.

The population is completely out-of-hand. Schools in America are packed, there are not enough teachers and money, the roads need fixed but cannot be, etc. - it is just too much to maintain, and greatly in the end.

The amount of consumption and wastefulness is horrifying. I heard that America alone consumes more resources than China! Which has around 3 times the population.

As Robert said about Earth in present day:

Its like some hideous parody of the natural world...

[Preston]

I suspect that the rich "help" the poor for two reasons:

1. They want to be 'popular' or 'liked' among the common man, to avoid number 2, thus:

2. They offer their crumbs so that should the 'Revolution' be just around the corner, they will be spared.

They won't. Nor should they be...

I think those are two good reasons why the rich "help" the poor. They do usually publicize "their great humanitarian efforts". I am not saying they are the only reasons, as I don't think you are, but I think they are two good reasons. I think another reason could be they may be in great despair for all of the blood-sucking atrocities they have done throughout their life.

The bottom line is, imo, they take too much money when they should not - therefore, leaving others in despair and starvation, terrible environments, etc. Take a piece but don't take the whole pie.

No, they should not, at all, imo.

[Chris]

Chris it is a real problem now! The UK is extremely congested (especially in the south) with a population set to reach 71 million by 2033 - we are only 93,800 sq miles compared to 3,717,813 sq miles for the US. The roads are a nightmare, the countryside vanishing fast (95% meadows destroyed in the last 30 years).

Global population has more than doubled in the past 50 years and according to UN predicitions the world's population will rise from 6.5 billion to 9.1 billion by 2050. Populations will at least triple in some of the poorest nations -- Afghanistan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Chad, Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, East Timor, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Niger and Uganda.

As things are, one billion people do not have access to clean water, so if we are having problems now dealing with famine, wars, disease, pollution, destruction of the natural environment and natural resources - how on earth can we cope with more?

The problem is not that we don't have enough resources for everyone. We do, and many more. The question is whether or not everyone will share them fairly. But that's always the problem. It is not a high population that causes poverty. I'm confident in our capacity to deal with a far, far higher population on earth. What I'm concerned about is the people who want to "control" the population by killing off the sick, the elderly, the young, and the poor. The potential atrocities committed in the name of population control terrify me.

[PDG]

I suspect that the rich "help" the poor for two reasons:

1. They want to be 'popular' or 'liked' among the common man, to avoid number 2, thus:

2. They offer their crumbs so that should the 'Revolution' be just around the corner, they will be spared.

They won't. Nor should they be...

[Sorrano]

Dont forget: the creation of jobs rest squarely on the anvil of the thinking machine that is [kettle drum roll]: "The Inventor". I'm willing to Betsy that alot the success of Bill Gates is really owed to the sweat of research and development teams that is convenient to his lovely fingertips and that he is able to "fund" these



The remains of Tesla grins from ear to ear in his 6 feet below bedrest whle humming: "You got the money, honey, I got the time"

Not to mention some of the technologies that Microsoft "swiped" from other companies, especially in the early going.

[EternaLisa]

Again you can't generalise about all billionaires - don't forget that millionaires create jobs and some billionaires are doing a lot of good, take the Bill Gates foundation for example. http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx

Dont forget: the creation of jobs rest squarely on the anvil of the thinking machine that is [kettle drum roll]: "The Inventor". I'm willing to Betsy that alot the success of Bill Gates is really owed to the sweat of research and development teams that is convenient to his lovely fingertips and that he is able to "fund" these



The remains of Tesla grins from ear to ear in his 6 feet below bedrest whle humming: "You got the money, honey, I got the time"

[Peter]

Chris it is a real problem now! The UK is extremely congested (especially in the south) with a population set to reach 71 million by 2033 - we are only 93,800 sq miles compared to 3,717,813 sq miles for the US. The roads are a nightmare, the countryside vanishing fast (95% meadows destroyed in the last 30 years).

Global population has more than doubled in the past 50 years and according to UN predicitions the world's population will rise from 6.5 billion to 9.1 billion by 2050. Populations will at least triple in some of the poorest nations -- Afghanistan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Chad, Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, East Timor, Guinea Bissau, Liberia, Mali, Niger and Uganda.

As things are, one billion people do not have access to clean water, so if we are having problems now dealing with famine, wars, disease, pollution, destruction of the natural environment and natural resources - how on earth can we cope with more?

[Chris]

I think overpopulation, like many of the world's "problems", is and will be used by politicians and corporations as a means to sell you a solution long before it ever actually becomes a true problem (if it ever does). That is another thing to keep in mind - as long as there is someone who wants to give you a solution in exchange for your vote, your freedom, or your money, you can be pretty sure that person is exaggerating the severity of the issue in question.

[Peter]

I agree Peter. there are many who would be miserable if they had every material comfort. Music is certainly one of life's great spiritual joys, freely availble to all. That said, we concerned also with physical or external realities and its healthy i think to take an informed interest.
In the last twenty years or so there has been the growth of what commentators have called the ' plutonomies ' - these are economies like US and Europe who have within them people who consume gigantic slices of the national pie and then there are the vast majority of the non rich. This is known s the 80 - 20 rule - 20% of your customers provide 80% of your profits so why bother with the other 80%? So the super rich get the grand treatment and the rest barely any service at all. My own purely personal view is that it was a great mistake to abolish capital controls for western economies, this allowed the bankers to gamble and lose vast amounts. We are clearly headed for more modest living styles which may be no bad thing and help us to safeguard the world's precious resources. A point I think Preston rightly refers to.

Yes of course - there is no doubt that the west consumes way too much and what a terrible example we have set the rest of the world who seem keen to follow. That comes down to my over population point and what I perceive as the greatest challenge facing the human race - one that no one seems that bothered about.

However whilst recognising the great wrongs, I feel it is essential to have a sense of proportion in order to maintain a happy and healthy approach to life.
Ultimately to stress and worry about things we have no control over is fruitless - we should focus on the things in our lives we can do something about!

[RobertH]

I agree Peter. there are many who would be miserable if they had every material comfort. Music is certainly one of life's great spiritual joys, freely availble to all. That said, we concerned also with physical or external realities and its healthy i think to take an informed interest.
In the last twenty years or so there has been the growth of what commentators have called the ' plutonomies ' - these are economies like US and Europe who have within them people who consume gigantic slices of the national pie and then there are the vast majority of the non rich. This is known s the 80 - 20 rule - 20% of your customers provide 80% of your profits so why bother with the other 80%? So the super rich get the grand treatment and the rest barely any service at all. My own purely personal view is that it was a great mistake to abolish capital controls for western economies, this allowed the bankers to gamble and lose vast amounts. We are clearly headed for more modest living styles which may be no bad thing and help us to safeguard the world's precious resources. A point I think Preston rightly refers to.

[Peter]

"Use your feelings, there is something out of place here." - Obi-Wan to Anakin, when referring to if the Supreme Chancellor was good - who was actually a Sith Lord.

Peter and Philip, I am sorry I cannot 'wholly' agree, by any means.
Philip, I am not trying to sound rude, by any means, though just because it seems that way to you does not mean it is correct/right, etc.

Peter, you and I often see close to eye to eye. Though, on this I cannot agree with you.

I do not know how to answer these questions and I think Robert would do better than I. He has a very clear and stable mentality, it seems, towards such serious issues. Robert?

I don't mind you (or anyone else!) not agreeing with me, but I do think you are way too cynical and focused on the negative aspects in life. A balance has to be struck or else I'm afraid there can be no happiness. You write about wealth and poverty but there is a wise saying "Any man, who does not think that what he has is more than ample, is an unhappy man, even if he is master of the whole world."