A Breath of fresh air

[Quijote]

OK Chris, so are you saying we should read the Old and New Testament in the original language(s), that this would be essential? So the muslims in Indonesia (or Pakistan) who can't read classical Arabic (becasue they speak, respectively, Indonesian or one of its many dialects/languages, or Urdu/Punjabi) have a somewhat "diminished" access to their Holy Book?

[Chris]

Well, the Koran has been translated, as has the Bible (as I don't read Greek or other ancient language [Aramaic? Hebrew?]). Ergo, not speaking any ancient language (apart from Latin, and I hardly speak that!), I think I know the difference between a mad-dog Christian or Judaic fundamentalist and the more palatable moderate version. No?
Stockhausen and Cher? Ouch!

There are some unbelievably bad translations of the Bible into English out there, some due to incompetence, some due to an agenda. I have no doubt the same could be true of the Koran. I take RobertH point that knowledge of the original language is essential to read the book yourself and really understand it. And more than that. Knowledge of the writing styles, culture, and history of the period would be essential as well. Quite complicated. That's why I studied math. 5 is 5 in any language or age. Although we did seem to have some problems with 0...

[Sorrano]

The Ring cycle in under 4.5 minutes? Wow, have you been fiddling with your "fast forward" button on your Hi-Fi system or what?

Now, that I would really like to hear!

[Preston]

Well, reading the above makes me think the spirit of Marx and Engels is alive and kicking (not that they were ever really applied as intended). As to Utopias, that is also a dangerous road, because rather like one man's meat being another's poison, one's Utopia will be hell for another.

Marx and Engels were communists. They were sadly pushing for somekind of utopia. When you refer to the above it is not about Marx and Engels communism, quite the opposite.

Just didn't want to cause any confusion, .

[Quijote]

I could handle that. However, some here may actually prefer one of his shorter works (if performed a tempo it should be just under four and a half minutes. <grin>

The Ring cycle in under 4.5 minutes? Wow, have you been fiddling with your "fast forward" button on your Hi-Fi system or what?

[Sorrano]

No, a quick modification : enforced Cage and Wagner throughout the day, and no respite.

I could handle that. However, some here may actually prefer one of his shorter works (if performed a tempo it should be just under four and a half minutes. <grin>

[Quijote]

Knowing next to nothing about Islam, I have to say I am very wary of anyone who does not know Arabic [that's presumably most of us] saying that there is a moderate muslim and an extreme muslim. How on earth would anyone know who does not have the necessary knowledge.
Yes, my definition of dystopia would be forced to listen to Stockhausen all day and Cher.

Well, the Koran has been translated, as has the Bible (as I don't read Greek or other ancient language [Aramaic? Hebrew?]). Ergo, not speaking any ancient language (apart from Latin, and I hardly speak that!), I think I know the difference between a mad-dog Christian or Judaic fundamentalist and the more palatable moderate version. No?
Stockhausen and Cher? Ouch!

[RobertH]

Fully agree. I don't wish to get "too political" here, but these lunatic-fringe fundamentalist Islamists (Bin-Laden and his ilk) believe in a return to some sort of 6th-century Islamic "Utopia" that is simply anathema to the vast, common sense muslim majority, and such extreme vision has little to do with the true spirit of the Koran, as far as my (too few) muslim acquainances tell me. Utopia? No thanks.
Still, to lighten the tone, my own "musical Utopia" would be : enforced Cage throughout the day, and no respite. Hah!

Knowing next to nothing about Islam, I have to say I am very wary of anyone who does not know Arabic [that's presumably most of us] saying that there is a moderate muslim and an extreme muslim. How on earth would anyone know who does not have the necessary knowledge.
Yes, my definition of dystopia would be forced to listen to Stockhausen all day and Cher.

[Quijote]

No, a quick modification : enforced Cage and Wagner throughout the day, and no respite.

[Quijote]

All too often those envisioning utopias are inclined to subject the rest of humanity to those ideals, usually by force.

Fully agree. I don't wish to get "too political" here, but these lunatic-fringe fundamentalist Islamists (Bin-Laden and his ilk) believe in a return to some sort of 6th-century Islamic "Utopia" that is simply anathema to the vast, common sense muslim majority, and such extreme vision has little to do with the true spirit of the Koran, as far as my (too few) muslim acquainances tell me. Utopia? No thanks.
Still, to lighten the tone, my own "musical Utopia" would be : enforced Cage throughout the day, and no respite. Hah!

[Sorrano]

It's rather funny how we use technology to bring people closer together, but the end result is that you have two people standing next to each other with the mobile phones, texting each other.

[RobertH]

Upon my reading of Robinson Crusoe that idea of being happy in that world of his was apparent to me. Sometimes more is less in terms of temporal possessions.

Yes, absolutely agree Sorrano. And less is more. The insane passion for more and more useless material goods has to be cast out so that the greater goods of peace, well being, and love of neighbour can be cultivated. So I guess we can all make a virtue of necessity in these times we live in.

[Sorrano]

Upon my reading of Robinson Crusoe that idea of being happy in that world of his was apparent to me. Sometimes more is less in terms of temporal possessions.

[RobertH]

Yes there is that element of compulsion in the whole notion of a Utopia , and there is quite a ghastly thread that goes from Plato right through to Stalinism and the Third Reich and Polpot. St. Thomas More located the ideal world in our mind, that is the higher faculties are which Aristotle said really constitute man's deepest essence and where his true happiness lies. The problem with that is that people of a more worldly nature have often said More's Utopia would be to them more like a hell on earth. More's vision, if you want to call it that, has always seemed to me a bit more appropriate to what may lie ahead in the next world rather than this. This whole area of alternative world or of some charmed world elsewhere has always been a fascinating one for me. I love the story of Alexander Selkirk who provided the base for Robinson Crusoe. He was marooned on an Island of the coast of Chile for several years, and by all accounts led a blissfully happy life, happy on his own. After he was rescued he returned to Scotland where he gave lectures to a fascinated public and Defoe picked up the story and produced the great novel.
Selkirk, seemed to be very unhappy on returning back to civilization and died on the return journey back to his Island which was the only place where he felt happy.


.

[Sorrano]

Well, reading the above makes me think the spirit of Marx and Engels is alive and kicking (not that they were ever really applied as intended). As to Utopias, that is also a dangerous road, because rather like one man's meat being another's poison, one's Utopia will be hell for another.

All too often those envisioning utopias are inclined to subject the rest of humanity to those ideals, usually by force.