A Breath of fresh air

[Quijote]

Well, reading the above makes me think the spirit of Marx and Engels is alive and kicking (not that they were ever really applied as intended). As to Utopias, that is also a dangerous road, because rather like one man's meat being another's poison, one's Utopia will be hell for another.

[Preston]

Thanks Peter, and back at you, truly. Though, as you have stated before, in truth we know so little, so little. I agree, an alternative system would be a huge undertaking, though it desperately needs to be done. One step at a time, and hope for the best. Though, in a sense, it would be hard to get much worse than things are now. Though, if things keep progressing and more metropolises keep being built and added to, wars keep being wars, etc. then all the beauty of earth as it once was will be gone and it will be like somekind of nightmare realm.

[Peter]

Wanted to add that although democratic societies are supposedly a form of freedom - many people never get to experience it because of oppression. So, while considered free and while it does have freedoms, the oppression is too much and therefore capitalistic democracy is no democracy at all it seems.

So for many a county like America is like somekind of strange dicatatorship with no way out.

Anyway, I am about burned out from typing, lol, and am probably starting to make little sense. Time for a break!

You have a very developed social conscience which is refreshing to hear! I agree with your comments on our 'democracies' which in reality are benign dictatorships for a limited time frame, but it is hard to think of an alternative system that could actually function better - more transparency and accountability is the road to go down I think.

I also agree with your comments about war (which I'm sorry to say we are also involved in) and that leads on from my remarks about exploitation - we simply believe we have a duty to impose our self-righteous values and way of life on other people - we certainly don't like it the other way round!

As to spirituality, well yes it seems a rare quality these days but much of our negative perception is down to the press focusing entirely on trivia and the bad things in the world - a better balance could be drawn to show positive things that are happening as well!

[Preston]

Wanted to add that although democratic societies are supposedly a form of freedom - many people never get to experience it because of oppression. So, while considered free and while it does have freedoms, the oppression is too much and therefore capitalistic democracy is no democracy at all it seems.

So for many a county like America is like somekind of strange dicatatorship with no way out.

Anyway, I am about burned out from typing, lol, and am probably starting to make little sense. Time for a break!

[Preston]

First, just wanted to add that we cannot, and absolutely should not, even begin to hope for any type of utopia or anything relative. What we should hope for, imo, is just to make things better regarding finances. Seeing as a lot of the world is based around money I think that is a good idea, !

Touching on that, I would like to add that while there are 1st world nations and continents, there are also not - and that is a good thing, a very good thing, to my mind. A problem is that the 1st world governments think that the 1st world is the right way while the 2nd and 3rd are not. This is how cultures are lost and how the world could become a total metropolis - very concerning. I think there has to be somekind of a plan where cultures are left alone and government does not interfere.

Also, thinking of 3rd world environments the American government has been in war for 10 years now! WHAT THE HECK!? Anyway, I find that utterly disturbing and still shocking. I think they are trying to wipe out an entire religion and take all the oil and land they can in the process - or vice-versa, I don't know? Just shocking to me.

Then we move on to another angle and that is we may be better off materially, but are we spiritually and morally?

Peter, just to touch on spirituality. I have become convinced that human beings, as a whole, are not a spiritual species. We never have been as a whole. Almost like the opposite. There have been and are many spiritual people, even people of such great spirituality and morality. Though, it is something about us, as a whole or the majority. Several people are spiritual and many are not, type of thing, I think. Spirituality seems to be something of a given to an individual and is clearly, CLEARLY, not something that can be forced.

Yes I agree democracy is a far better answer than any form of dictatorship and is the answer (force is not the answer), it seems. Though not without certain limitations. Such as, redistribution of income, or solid environmental laws, leaving cultures to be, etc. I think a complete free-for-all has utterly disturbing outcomes as we have seen and are beginning to see even more seriously concerning the environment, etc.

*I know we have discussed what spirituality is in the past, though I am just using it as a general term.

[Peter]

Peter, I completely agree with your concerns about incentive, . I am not saying take half, etc. That would be more of a form of communism - no incentive at all! I also agree with your belief about helping the poor or fellow human being.

What I am saying is let the rich be rich - just not 'that' rich, if you understand what I mean? The amounts of money people have when compared to others and when compared to what is needed in these dire time is absurd.

There needs to be a very, very, etc. well thought out process of going about this - which has not been done in history it seems - where the rich are rich and the poor can live more comfortably, etc.

I don't know how it should be gone about it either - rather complex that? Though, it is something that desperately needs to be done!

I know this is all general writing on my part Peter, though am glad you understand what I am saying.

Yes these are very complex issues and there isn't a simple answer - I can't agree that it hasn't been done in history because if you look at how the poor were treated 100 years ago compared to now things have improved beyond recognition - the poorest in Britain today would have been considered reasonably well off in 1900. On the other hand I'm not talking globally and we have to wonder if our improvement in social conditions in the west is simply through the exploitation of the rest of the world?

Then we move on to another angle and that is we may be better off materially, but are we spiritually and morally? We are certainly far too materialistic and each of us is guilty of having things we simply don't need, but then that drives the economies (or it used to before we got in this mess!!) that provide the wealth necessary for spending on health, education etc..

One thing is clear and that is that dictatorship is the biggest block to social welfare and democracy (however flawed) is the only way forward.

[Preston]

To add, I believe people really need to focus more on the natural side of life (which is diminishing by the day) and not so much on the metropolises. It is very concerning. These monstrous metropolises are pretty much terrifying.

Does anyone know how much of the Amazon has been deforested? I am very curious to know this.

[Preston]

Although I understand your sentiment I can't entirely agree Preston - 'simple redistribution', in other words take half the salary of say a doctor and give it to someone who doesn't want to work? The trouble is you destroy incentive - why bother to study or work if the end result is the same? Many rich people (not all I grant you) have worked extremely hard for what they have, sometimes having started with nothing and they deserve the fruits of their labour, which in the case of small business benefits the whole community not just the individual.

However I do think that there are extreme salaries paid to people who really don't deserve it such as sports stars, film and pop celebrities - maybe there should be some sort of cap on the top end salaries as quite frankly they are obscene, but I don't know how you go about it.

Of course any decent society should look after its poor and sick properly and therefore a balance of fair taxation has to be in place to enable this, but simply dividing money up in equal proportion for everyone cannot work.

Peter, I completely agree with your concerns about incentive, . I am not saying take half, etc. That would be more of a form of communism - no incentive at all! I also agree with your belief about helping the poor or fellow human being.

What I am saying is let the rich be rich - just not 'that' rich, if you understand what I mean? The amounts of money people have when compared to others and when compared to what is needed in these dire time is absurd.

There needs to be a very, very, etc. well thought out process of going about this - which has not been done in history it seems - where the rich are rich and the poor can live more comfortably, etc.

I don't know how it should be gone about it either - rather complex that? Though, it is something that desperately needs to be done!

I know this is all general writing on my part Peter, though am glad you understand what I am saying.

[Peter]

Sorry for the politics though in light of our former discussion I wanted to mention this.

Recently, I was walking down the streets of a city and, again, saw much homelessness, etc. Then in a rather simple thought I realized - there is a lot of oppression in America. In truth, unless one has the means (wealth) America is an oppressive country. Then it hit me:

Oppression will exist without some form, kind, branch, etc. of socialism. Not Communism, Not full-blown Socialism, etc. but a simple redistribution of money in a still somewhat free-enterprise environment.

Something like that.

I cannot believe some type of unimaginable rebellion (where the poor have rebelled against the rich, so to say) has not begun in America?

Although I understand your sentiment I can't entirely agree Preston - 'simple redistribution', in other words take half the salary of say a doctor and give it to someone who doesn't want to work? The trouble is you destroy incentive - why bother to study or work if the end result is the same? Many rich people (not all I grant you) have worked extremely hard for what they have, sometimes having started with nothing and they deserve the fruits of their labour, which in the case of small business benefits the whole community not just the individual.

However I do think that there are extreme salaries paid to people who really don't deserve it such as sports stars, film and pop celebrities - maybe there should be some sort of cap on the top end salaries as quite frankly they are obscene, but I don't know how you go about it.

Of course any decent society should look after its poor and sick properly and therefore a balance of fair taxation has to be in place to enable this, but simply dividing money up in equal proportion for everyone cannot work.

[Preston]

without redistribution of wealth, oppresion will always be...

Sorry for the politics though in light of our former discussion I wanted to mention this.

Recently, I was walking down the streets of a city and, again, saw much homelessness, etc. Then in a rather simple thought I realized - there is a lot of oppression in America. In truth, unless one has the means (wealth) America is an oppressive country. Then it hit me:

Oppression will exist without some form, kind, branch, etc. of socialism. Not Communism, Not full-blown Socialism, etc. but a simple redistribution of money in a still somewhat free-enterprise environment.

Something like that.

I cannot believe some type of unimaginable rebellion (where the poor have rebelled against the rich, so to say) has not begun in America?

[Preston]

To all:

Please forgive the lack of clarity and all too general writing, in my writing. It is hard to write all that I want to say.

[Preston]

Its like some hideous parody of the natural world, the ordinary bees who only exist to keep the queen bees going, the billionaires in their own hives.

So true, so deeply true. I see this and have for several years. It is like somekind of unimaginable phenomenon of a parody. That is a very well understood and moving thought. You see this. You understand this. And to, I believe, a far greater degree than me. Fascinating, simply fascinating. Glorious - like the glory of the brass instruments. Singing in all their glory, their glorious light, the glorious light, their glorious strength and difference, their glorious courage, their glorious truth. LONG LIVE THE BRASS!

It is as though if that so many of the human species have gone right out of their minds to a degree that cannot even be comprehended. I have given this nutty disorder a name - FPD (FAKE PERSONALITY DISORDER). I believe FPD, or whatever, is alive and kicking - so much, so deeply bad.

Amen Robert. Amen.

Tis' the pain of the howling.
Such unimaginable pain in this world - and far beyond.

[EternaLisa]

-I stand by what I said, and to my mind, hopefully always will.

---Imo, the goal in life should be achieving a better human nature.

Be more fair to each other.


----Otherwise, the disease of greed, famine, diseases, poverty, starvation, death, murder, etc. - everything terrible in this world will continue to spread until the end of the world, imo.

-keep on thinking/posting free--it's good for the forums, good for yourself, and good for the rest of the 'human' species -

---and where does all that that start? Certainly not by insisting that everyone "be fair and play well in the same room" with one another.

The world guarantees you nothing, not even in all the 'securities' it offers.

No one knows when/if the world itself will end-it does seem needless to be worrying/harping over it. But, this is for certain: YOUR world will end when your timeline stops. GUARANTEED!

[EternaLisa]

The point is a sense of contributing to society and therefore being a part of it - not developing a take what you can, something for nothing culture. Work gives you a sense of responsibility and self-respect - to encourage people not to work is criminal. I'm not saying there isn't a place for welfare - of course it is essential for those who really need it (people who genuinely cannot work through mental or physical disability) **however a society that makes its citizens better off by abstaining from work has got it badly wrong and the social consequences are all too apparent with many of those individuals resorting to drugs and crime to escape the boredom and feelings of worthlessness.

most assuredly....

**those who bend to that ideal become 'wards of the state' and are more of a prisoner than those who will get out and expend their efforts towards constructivity...

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These are people who do not want to/will not be felt sorry for, pitied...due to their physical limitations...and no one is making them want to work either.

I used to gripe about a hammer costing the government 3 times as much, being obligated to source these agencies over going to local outfits where one could invest a reasonably expected cost into one., until someone pointed out why it was costing that much and why we were canvassing the skilcraft stores...now I don't mind spending the government's money on those things because I see the light of mind in so doing...


I used to work in nursing homes many years ago. More often than not, those who could do for themselves wouldn't, and those who could not do for themselves were the ones who tried the hardest to and were the more demanding ones to deal with.

[Peter]

I stand by what I said, and to my mind, hopefully always will. I think?

I see absolute no point in giving up any government benefits to working a full-time minimum wage job, then being able to survive less. Tis' madness - complete and total insanity.


Perhaps, they could not do anything to achieve the goals you speak of? I know of this. Sometimes things that some people can do other cannot and vice-versa.

LONG LIVE WELFARE! 8-)

The point is a sense of contributing to society and therefore being a part of it - not developing a take what you can, something for nothing culture. Work gives you a sense of responsibility and self-respect - to encourage people not to work is criminal. I'm not saying there isn't a place for welfare - of course it is essential for those who really need it (people who genuinely cannot work through mental or physical disability) however a society that makes its citizens better off by abstaining from work has got it badly wrong and the social consequences are all too apparent with many of those individuals resorting to drugs and crime to escape the boredom and feelings of worthlessness.