A Breath of fresh air

[Preston]

To all:

Please forgive the lack of clarity and all too general writing, in my writing. It is hard to write all that I want to say.

[Preston]

without redistribution of wealth, oppresion will always be...

Sorry for the politics though in light of our former discussion I wanted to mention this.

Recently, I was walking down the streets of a city and, again, saw much homelessness, etc. Then in a rather simple thought I realized - there is a lot of oppression in America. In truth, unless one has the means (wealth) America is an oppressive country. Then it hit me:

Oppression will exist without some form, kind, branch, etc. of socialism. Not Communism, Not full-blown Socialism, etc. but a simple redistribution of money in a still somewhat free-enterprise environment.

Something like that.

I cannot believe some type of unimaginable rebellion (where the poor have rebelled against the rich, so to say) has not begun in America?

[Peter]

Sorry for the politics though in light of our former discussion I wanted to mention this.

Recently, I was walking down the streets of a city and, again, saw much homelessness, etc. Then in a rather simple thought I realized - there is a lot of oppression in America. In truth, unless one has the means (wealth) America is an oppressive country. Then it hit me:

Oppression will exist without some form, kind, branch, etc. of socialism. Not Communism, Not full-blown Socialism, etc. but a simple redistribution of money in a still somewhat free-enterprise environment.

Something like that.

I cannot believe some type of unimaginable rebellion (where the poor have rebelled against the rich, so to say) has not begun in America?

Although I understand your sentiment I can't entirely agree Preston - 'simple redistribution', in other words take half the salary of say a doctor and give it to someone who doesn't want to work? The trouble is you destroy incentive - why bother to study or work if the end result is the same? Many rich people (not all I grant you) have worked extremely hard for what they have, sometimes having started with nothing and they deserve the fruits of their labour, which in the case of small business benefits the whole community not just the individual.

However I do think that there are extreme salaries paid to people who really don't deserve it such as sports stars, film and pop celebrities - maybe there should be some sort of cap on the top end salaries as quite frankly they are obscene, but I don't know how you go about it.

Of course any decent society should look after its poor and sick properly and therefore a balance of fair taxation has to be in place to enable this, but simply dividing money up in equal proportion for everyone cannot work.

[Preston]

Although I understand your sentiment I can't entirely agree Preston - 'simple redistribution', in other words take half the salary of say a doctor and give it to someone who doesn't want to work? The trouble is you destroy incentive - why bother to study or work if the end result is the same? Many rich people (not all I grant you) have worked extremely hard for what they have, sometimes having started with nothing and they deserve the fruits of their labour, which in the case of small business benefits the whole community not just the individual.

However I do think that there are extreme salaries paid to people who really don't deserve it such as sports stars, film and pop celebrities - maybe there should be some sort of cap on the top end salaries as quite frankly they are obscene, but I don't know how you go about it.

Of course any decent society should look after its poor and sick properly and therefore a balance of fair taxation has to be in place to enable this, but simply dividing money up in equal proportion for everyone cannot work.

Peter, I completely agree with your concerns about incentive, . I am not saying take half, etc. That would be more of a form of communism - no incentive at all! I also agree with your belief about helping the poor or fellow human being.

What I am saying is let the rich be rich - just not 'that' rich, if you understand what I mean? The amounts of money people have when compared to others and when compared to what is needed in these dire time is absurd.

There needs to be a very, very, etc. well thought out process of going about this - which has not been done in history it seems - where the rich are rich and the poor can live more comfortably, etc.

I don't know how it should be gone about it either - rather complex that? Though, it is something that desperately needs to be done!

I know this is all general writing on my part Peter, though am glad you understand what I am saying.

[Preston]

To add, I believe people really need to focus more on the natural side of life (which is diminishing by the day) and not so much on the metropolises. It is very concerning. These monstrous metropolises are pretty much terrifying.

Does anyone know how much of the Amazon has been deforested? I am very curious to know this.

[Peter]

Peter, I completely agree with your concerns about incentive, . I am not saying take half, etc. That would be more of a form of communism - no incentive at all! I also agree with your belief about helping the poor or fellow human being.

What I am saying is let the rich be rich - just not 'that' rich, if you understand what I mean? The amounts of money people have when compared to others and when compared to what is needed in these dire time is absurd.

There needs to be a very, very, etc. well thought out process of going about this - which has not been done in history it seems - where the rich are rich and the poor can live more comfortably, etc.

I don't know how it should be gone about it either - rather complex that? Though, it is something that desperately needs to be done!

I know this is all general writing on my part Peter, though am glad you understand what I am saying.

Yes these are very complex issues and there isn't a simple answer - I can't agree that it hasn't been done in history because if you look at how the poor were treated 100 years ago compared to now things have improved beyond recognition - the poorest in Britain today would have been considered reasonably well off in 1900. On the other hand I'm not talking globally and we have to wonder if our improvement in social conditions in the west is simply through the exploitation of the rest of the world?

Then we move on to another angle and that is we may be better off materially, but are we spiritually and morally? We are certainly far too materialistic and each of us is guilty of having things we simply don't need, but then that drives the economies (or it used to before we got in this mess!!) that provide the wealth necessary for spending on health, education etc..

One thing is clear and that is that dictatorship is the biggest block to social welfare and democracy (however flawed) is the only way forward.

[Preston]

First, just wanted to add that we cannot, and absolutely should not, even begin to hope for any type of utopia or anything relative. What we should hope for, imo, is just to make things better regarding finances. Seeing as a lot of the world is based around money I think that is a good idea, !

Touching on that, I would like to add that while there are 1st world nations and continents, there are also not - and that is a good thing, a very good thing, to my mind. A problem is that the 1st world governments think that the 1st world is the right way while the 2nd and 3rd are not. This is how cultures are lost and how the world could become a total metropolis - very concerning. I think there has to be somekind of a plan where cultures are left alone and government does not interfere.

Also, thinking of 3rd world environments the American government has been in war for 10 years now! WHAT THE HECK!? Anyway, I find that utterly disturbing and still shocking. I think they are trying to wipe out an entire religion and take all the oil and land they can in the process - or vice-versa, I don't know? Just shocking to me.

Then we move on to another angle and that is we may be better off materially, but are we spiritually and morally?

Peter, just to touch on spirituality. I have become convinced that human beings, as a whole, are not a spiritual species. We never have been as a whole. Almost like the opposite. There have been and are many spiritual people, even people of such great spirituality and morality. Though, it is something about us, as a whole or the majority. Several people are spiritual and many are not, type of thing, I think. Spirituality seems to be something of a given to an individual and is clearly, CLEARLY, not something that can be forced.

Yes I agree democracy is a far better answer than any form of dictatorship and is the answer (force is not the answer), it seems. Though not without certain limitations. Such as, redistribution of income, or solid environmental laws, leaving cultures to be, etc. I think a complete free-for-all has utterly disturbing outcomes as we have seen and are beginning to see even more seriously concerning the environment, etc.

*I know we have discussed what spirituality is in the past, though I am just using it as a general term.

[Preston]

Wanted to add that although democratic societies are supposedly a form of freedom - many people never get to experience it because of oppression. So, while considered free and while it does have freedoms, the oppression is too much and therefore capitalistic democracy is no democracy at all it seems.

So for many a county like America is like somekind of strange dicatatorship with no way out.

Anyway, I am about burned out from typing, lol, and am probably starting to make little sense. Time for a break!

[Peter]

Wanted to add that although democratic societies are supposedly a form of freedom - many people never get to experience it because of oppression. So, while considered free and while it does have freedoms, the oppression is too much and therefore capitalistic democracy is no democracy at all it seems.

So for many a county like America is like somekind of strange dicatatorship with no way out.

Anyway, I am about burned out from typing, lol, and am probably starting to make little sense. Time for a break!

You have a very developed social conscience which is refreshing to hear! I agree with your comments on our 'democracies' which in reality are benign dictatorships for a limited time frame, but it is hard to think of an alternative system that could actually function better - more transparency and accountability is the road to go down I think.

I also agree with your comments about war (which I'm sorry to say we are also involved in) and that leads on from my remarks about exploitation - we simply believe we have a duty to impose our self-righteous values and way of life on other people - we certainly don't like it the other way round!

As to spirituality, well yes it seems a rare quality these days but much of our negative perception is down to the press focusing entirely on trivia and the bad things in the world - a better balance could be drawn to show positive things that are happening as well!

[Preston]

Thanks Peter, and back at you, truly. Though, as you have stated before, in truth we know so little, so little. I agree, an alternative system would be a huge undertaking, though it desperately needs to be done. One step at a time, and hope for the best. Though, in a sense, it would be hard to get much worse than things are now. Though, if things keep progressing and more metropolises keep being built and added to, wars keep being wars, etc. then all the beauty of earth as it once was will be gone and it will be like somekind of nightmare realm.

[Quijote]

Well, reading the above makes me think the spirit of Marx and Engels is alive and kicking (not that they were ever really applied as intended). As to Utopias, that is also a dangerous road, because rather like one man's meat being another's poison, one's Utopia will be hell for another.

[Sorrano]

Well, reading the above makes me think the spirit of Marx and Engels is alive and kicking (not that they were ever really applied as intended). As to Utopias, that is also a dangerous road, because rather like one man's meat being another's poison, one's Utopia will be hell for another.

All too often those envisioning utopias are inclined to subject the rest of humanity to those ideals, usually by force.

[RobertH]

Yes there is that element of compulsion in the whole notion of a Utopia , and there is quite a ghastly thread that goes from Plato right through to Stalinism and the Third Reich and Polpot. St. Thomas More located the ideal world in our mind, that is the higher faculties are which Aristotle said really constitute man's deepest essence and where his true happiness lies. The problem with that is that people of a more worldly nature have often said More's Utopia would be to them more like a hell on earth. More's vision, if you want to call it that, has always seemed to me a bit more appropriate to what may lie ahead in the next world rather than this. This whole area of alternative world or of some charmed world elsewhere has always been a fascinating one for me. I love the story of Alexander Selkirk who provided the base for Robinson Crusoe. He was marooned on an Island of the coast of Chile for several years, and by all accounts led a blissfully happy life, happy on his own. After he was rescued he returned to Scotland where he gave lectures to a fascinated public and Defoe picked up the story and produced the great novel.
Selkirk, seemed to be very unhappy on returning back to civilization and died on the return journey back to his Island which was the only place where he felt happy.


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[Sorrano]

Upon my reading of Robinson Crusoe that idea of being happy in that world of his was apparent to me. Sometimes more is less in terms of temporal possessions.

[RobertH]

Upon my reading of Robinson Crusoe that idea of being happy in that world of his was apparent to me. Sometimes more is less in terms of temporal possessions.

Yes, absolutely agree Sorrano. And less is more. The insane passion for more and more useless material goods has to be cast out so that the greater goods of peace, well being, and love of neighbour can be cultivated. So I guess we can all make a virtue of necessity in these times we live in.