Mozart's Jupiter

[Preston]

I find it lacking in power as the opening hook is weak.

thx

I wanted to point out a few things and ask you a few things. I do not think that power is what makes good music, well at least not all the time. If every piece was powerful (as in volcano type power, or something) then there would be no peace. I think the most sublime pieces are probably very peaceful and not as agitated, etc. as the "power music".

Though regarding the symphony, or all music, imo - music all comes down to how the listener intereprets it. So may think it powerful, some may think it weak - the complete opposites - that is how subjective music can be, opposite.

What are your thoughts on the opening theme of Mozart's symphony 41?
What are a few pieces of classical music you do consider powerful?
What do you think of the ending of Mozart's piano concerto 20 - the last 2 minutes when the minor turns to major, and ends in major?

Mozart confuses me a lot too. His music to my mind - is pleasant, enjoyable, fun, powerful, etc. - so I get easily confused.

[Roehre]

He was a great poet as well. Beethoven set a lot of his stuff.

Yes, by far the better part of his songs.

[Michael]

I think the confusion arises because I'm using the old Russian calendar - Anon's true name being Anonovich - just think how many poor imitators and false attributions he has had to suffer in the subsequent centuries!

He was a great poet as well. Beethoven set a lot of his stuff.

[Peter]

Sorry to be pedantic, Peter, but he died in 29,764 BC at 96 - or should that be 98 as we are counting backwards?
Either way, a sad loss to humanity.

Thomas Gray put it very well:

"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flow'r is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.
Some village-Hampden, that with dauntless breast
The little tyrant of his fields withstood;
Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest."

I think the confusion arises because I'm using the old Russian calendar - Anon's true name being Anonovich - just think how many poor imitators and false attributions he has had to suffer in the subsequent centuries!

[Michael]

No, there's one even greater than him - Anon, who died in 29,765 BC aged 97, unfortunately, there being no means of writing or notation, all of his vast output has been lost to posterity.

Sorry to be pedantic, Peter, but he died in 29,764 BC at 96 - or should that be 98 as we are counting backwards?
Either way, a sad loss to humanity.

Thomas Gray put it very well:

"Full many a gem of purest ray serene,
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flow'r is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air.
Some village-Hampden, that with dauntless breast
The little tyrant of his fields withstood;
Some mute inglorious Milton here may rest."

[Peter]

We are actually agreeing here. Beethoven would probably have emerged as a great creative artist - but would he be the one we know today?
Actually, this kind of speculation is pointless. If B hadn't gone deaf - would he be as great?

I am convinced that there was a greater composer than Beethoven. Unfortunately, he died at the age of two.

No, there's one even greater than him - Anon, who died in 29,765 BC aged 97, unfortunately, there being no means of writing or notation, all of his vast output has been lost to posterity.

[Michael]

I disagree as I think LvB would still have been a creative artist, his music would have been different yes but that much creative energy and passion would have still been unleashed. Without either I could see LvB creating new forms of music.

We are actually agreeing here. Beethoven would probably have emerged as a great creative artist - but would he be the one we know today?
Actually, this kind of speculation is pointless. If B hadn't gone deaf - would he be as great?

I am convinced that there was a greater composer than Beethoven. Unfortunately, he died at the age of two.

[Michael]

I need to point out an error in a previous posting of mine above (it's too late to edit it). I stated that there were 29 bars of the Jupiter symphony in Beethoven's sketchbooks for his Fifth. It has been pointed out to me by a vastly more knowledgeable person than myself that those bars were from the G minor symphony - which is quite correct. I mixed up the 40th with the 41st.
Apologies.
However - and it may be just me - but I do see a resemblance between a theme from the slow movement of the Jupiter and the second theme in the finale of Beethoven's Fifth, allowing for changes of tempo and key.

[Roehre]

See Michael's post #26, it's in LvB's sketchbook for the 5th

No.
There is a 29 bar Mozartian fragment to be found among these sketches.
But Beethoven did emphatically not marked them as "Mozart", as it was meant for his own use.
Beethoven never mentioned the composers of useful passages he copied from others among his sketches.

Btw, I am not sure whether it is the Jupiter from which this fragment stems.
AFAIK it is the g-minor KV550. I am looking for a reference (not found yet, not mentioned as such in Johnson-Tyson-Winter Sketchbooks), and have asked Michael too for one.

[Chris]

then why have you removed 'philip' post???????

i find it offensive and asinine in other forums he would be banned.

I might have edited it if I had caught it before you did, but since that damage has been done, there is little to be gained by doing it now, except to make this thread even more confusing.

And please, everyone, if you have any questions about moderation or the forum, send me a PM so that we do not disrupt the on-topic discussion.

[painter_mindscapes]

None of these does, I am afraid.

See Michael's post #26, it's in LvB's sketchbook for the 5th

[Roehre]

Don't remember exact page but I read it in one of these books

Barry Cooper, Beethoven
Edmund Morris, Beethoven
Nicholas Cook, Beethoven Symphony No 9

None of these does, I am afraid.

[painter_mindscapes]

And your followup post was not offensive?????

D-mn right it was, I was defending myself.

Key words in your post "followup post"

[painter_mindscapes]

My assertion was: "Without the Jupiter, there would have been no Eroica...etc."

I probably should amend it to read: "Without Haydn and Mozart, there would have been no Beethoven". You know what I mean.

I disagree as I think LvB would still have been a creative artist, his music would have been different yes but that much creative energy and passion would have still been unleashed. Without either I could see LvB creating new forms of music.

[Sorrano]

then why have you removed 'philip' post???????

i find it offensive and asinine in other forums he would be banned.

And your followup post was not offensive?????