Butchering Mozart Operas

[Quijote]

That is interesting. I thought this was all about opera and not about right or left wing politics. And, what "shock, horror, scandal..." posts of mine are you referring to? I don't post here often, so I can't imagine what posts you are referring to.

I am always interesting, Agnès. But you must forgive me, I am not very bright, for I always thought that any opera had a certain social context (be that 18th, 19th or 20th century... and beyond) that "highlighted" (shall we say) a given political milieu or social issue. If not, opera is just "zarzuela", no?

[Quijote]

As to "shock, horror, scandal", I was of course referring to the tone of the article you posted.
As a (struggling and apparently recovering) formalist, I would clearly prefer opera to be conceived as a bunch of people singing and acting on the stage to orchestral accompaniment that can be reduced to Schenkerian principles of functional harmony.

[Agnes Selby]

Err..... yes, I think Philip got his tentacles in a twist Agnes!
We must make allowances.

Thank you, Megan, I will keep it mind.

[Peter]

I did. It struck me as the usual run-of-the-mill conservative stance, even though I may not particularly admire Guth's oeuvre in general.
I also note that the Right Wing Watch organisation takes a dim view of the City Journal's owners, these being The Manhattan Institute for Political Research, an undoubtedly conservative think-tank.

You always takes a blatant and rather smug (left wing) political angle on the issues - having seen the equally dire results of both sides I'm generally apolitical, I couldn't care if you call it left or right or that you're a Guardian luvvie (and no I don't read the daily Mail!) - I simply don't like many modern attempts to over sensationalise and to 'update' into a different context than originally intended. Take the Laufenberg Don Giovanini that people rave about - Don Giovanni lives in a luxury apartment, eats sushi (I don't think we're in Seville) and locates his lovers with a cell phone. He justifys this stance by praising the character of Don Giovanini, he is to be admired and even envied - he says (probably correctly) that DG is a modern character who fits in with todays world of consumption, pleasure (i.e utter selfishness) and most people aspire to be like him. Progress? I don't think so and that he can revel in it shows how far we really have sunk.

[Sorrano]

Without intention of being offensive, stirring the pot, etc., I might observe that Beethoven, in his day, would have been considered to be fairly left wing, liberal, etc, considering his political views toward Napoleon at the beginning of his campaigns.

[Agnes Selby]

Da Ponte likewise did not admire the nobility and the political order of the day. Mozart found more equality within the Masonic Order. However, hopes for equality never really
materialised only the "masters" had changed.

[Roehre]

Without intention of being offensive, stirring the pot, etc., I might observe that Beethoven, in his day, would have been considered to be fairly left wing, liberal, etc, considering his political views toward Napoleon at the beginning of his campaigns.

Most likely.
The files the Metternich-régime compiled from the late 1810s onwards (it was not too difficult to eavesdrop Beethoven during his frequenting Viennese taverns and free houses ) show that his view mellowed a bit, but never really changed. The Konversationshefte show the same. His opinion regarding Napoleon obviously changed, but not what this Bonaparte originally stood for: liberté, égalité, fraternité.

[Peter]

Without intention of being offensive, stirring the pot, etc., I might observe that Beethoven, in his day, would have been considered to be fairly left wing, liberal, etc, considering his political views toward Napoleon at the beginning of his campaigns.

Absolutely and that's highly relevant to this forum - our own personal political views should be our own business.

[Quijote]

I stand corrected, Agnès, Headmaster, et al...
So, you don't like these modern productions. But is anyone going to answer my query above : propose me your own mise en scène for your "fave" opera(s) that would make me want to get out a bit and spend a hefty sum of money rather than stay in with the CD.

[Peter]

I stand corrected, Agnès, Headmaster, et al...
So, you don't like these modern productions. But is anyone going to answer my query above : propose me your own mise en scène for your "fave" opera(s) that would make me want to get out a bit and spend a hefty sum of money rather than stay in with the CD.

Glad you took your punishment in the right spirit!
I'm not against ALL modern productions as long as they respect the original context instead of a director imposing his own agenda - if people can't cope with Da Ponte and Mozart as written then don't bother, watch something else like big brother - I just think it is absurd for example to have a production set in ancient Rome 'updated' to New York! Quite frankly it's a bit of an insult to suggest that an audience can't relate to another era and has to have it explained to them in a modern way.

Nor do I have an issue with political debate in context - for example clearly 'The Marriage of Figaro' is very political, but it is in reference to pre-revolutionary France, not 21st century social issues which are of a very different order.

I can't propose for you a production to see, because I rarely go myself and because I wouldn't expect you to agree with me - why should you? What is right for you is fine by me. My own criteria would be the composer, conductor, cast, director, venue and reviews!

[Quijote]

Glad you took your punishment in the right spirit!
I'm not against ALL modern productions as long as they respect the original context instead of a director imposing his own agenda - if people can't cope with Da Ponte and Mozart as written then don't bother, watch something else like big brother - I just think it is absurd for example to have a production set in ancient Rome 'updated' to New York! Quite frankly it's a bit of an insult to suggest that an audience can't relate to another era and has to have it explained to them in a modern way.

Nor do I have an issue with political debate in context - for example clearly 'The Marriage of Figaro' is very political, but it is in reference to pre-revolutionary France, not 21st century social issues which are of a very different order.

I can't propose for you a production to see, because I rarely go myself and because I wouldn't expect you to agree with me - why should you? What is right for you is fine by me. My own criteria would be the composer, conductor, cast, director, venue and reviews!

I always take my punishment like a man, Headmaster. Don't forget I was a grammar school boy when corporal punishment was the norm (bloody sadists, some of my teachers were...).

I don't find it all absurd that an original opera setting can be updated to a more modern context. For example, setting Fidelio in North Korea, or some other totalitarian state, as in my view the "spirit" of the setting/libretto allows for this.

But I am glad to note we agree that Opera is a highly "political" genre. As I said above, if not so, it becomes "zarzuela", a surely highly enjoyable entertainment of musical and stage frippery.

[Peter]

I always take my punishment like a man, Headmaster. Don't forget I was a grammar school boy when corporal punishment was the norm (bloody sadists, some of my teachers were...).

I didn't realise you were that old!

I don't find it all absurd that an original opera setting can be updated to a more modern context. For example, setting Fidelio in North Korea, or some other totalitarian state, as in my view the "spirit" of the setting/libretto allows for this.

Admittedly Fidelio has a universal theme.

But I am glad to note we agree that Opera is a highly "political" genre. As I said above, if not so, it becomes "zarzuela", a surely highly enjoyable entertainment of musical and stage frippery.

Quite and I'm happy to discuss it.

[Quijote]

I didn't realise you were that old! [...]

Well yes... and no. In any case, our belovèd masters dressed in black capes, we had to stand when the sadists entered the classroom. In Music class, cracked heads for false entries; in Latin class, beheadings for wrong declinaisons, in Chemistry, forced ingurgitation of sulphuric acid for not remembering the Periodic Table, and so on ...

[Preston]

As for school, you are not alone, trust me on that one, .

Interesting that your entire life is now based around school!

[Quijote]

As for school, you are not alone, trust me on that one, . Interesting that your entire life is now based around school!

Yes Preston, the irony of that has not escaped me! But truly, I never liked school : having to wear the uniform, blind obedience, indoctrination, bullying (and I mean the teachers)...
My university years on the other hand were bliss.