Dream concert

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
The notes are all too perfectly placed Sorrano - everything has this almost mathematical precission and thus a sence of predictablity and monotony always creeps in to ears used to more engaging music. Beethoven's textures are very robust with 'holes' and fermatas (pauses). And Handel is more akin to Beethoven in this respect. To be honest I see very little room for matters of interpretation with Bach regardless.

Every bar from Beethoven is composed to attract the musical attention and engage the mind, which is why Beethoven (and indeed Handel) is so poor 'background music', but Bach is perfect in this respect (and why Jazz fans always have a few Bach pieces in their collections). Paradoxically for all Bach's cleverness his music comes across to 'easy' on the ear for me, as does virtually any Romantic piece. To be honest I think all eras of CM composition suffer with this problem. Which is why I can only 'stomach' Handel and Beethoven to any significant degree, the others simply aren't consistanty interesting enough. Even with B and H it has to be done right - I heard Barenboim commit murder with the Pathetique earlier today. Think I'm being too fussy?

Yesterday I listened to one of Bach's Prelude and Fugues for organ. Not only did I hear the "notes... all too perfectly placed" but I heard a great deal of emotion and excitement in the music. Even to the order of the entrances of the fugue subject (and I mean in respect to which line--soprano, alto, tenor, bass--the subject appears at the first) there was a logical and emotional affect. Personally, I have a great difficulty listening the his orchestral music as well as most other Baroque orchestral music. I am not particularly fond of Baroque orchestral music but I do try and listen and enjoy what I do hear.

In regards to Barenboim, I am not surprised at your reaction. I have been much less than pleased with his interpretations of Beethoven's music as well as of others (Chopin, specifically--I purchased a set of the Nocturnes and listened to them with the scores. I came away from that experience much disappointed.)

We could argue about Bach until the cows come home without any affect. I, too, have some issues with Bach, but for different reasons than you. On the other hand I have discovered things about Bach that I truly love and find incomparable in other composers.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Absolutely, there is a wealth of glorious music out there both before and after Beethoven and to select just two of admittedly the highest peaks, but to dismiss the rest as boring and irrelevant seems rather narrow. It is certainly not the approach taken by Beethoven himself whose interest stretched back to Palestrina and beyond.

Yes but Beethoven didn't have himself to listen to. His frame of reference was different. I do not recall using the words boring and irrelevant but the thing is Peter, when you've had the finest cake, who want's old crusts of bread? There are a lot of old crusts floating about in the world of Classical Music.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 17, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Yesterday I listened to one of Bach's Prelude and Fugues for organ. Not only did I hear the "notes... all too perfectly placed" but I heard a great deal of emotion and excitement in the music. Even to the order of the entrances of the fugue subject (and I mean in respect to which line--soprano, alto, tenor, bass--the subject appears at the first) there was a logical and emotional affect. Personally, I have a great difficulty listening the his orchestral music as well as most other Baroque orchestral music. I am not particularly fond of Baroque orchestral music but I do try and listen and enjoy what I do hear.

In regards to Barenboim, I am not surprised at your reaction. I have been much less than pleased with his interpretations of Beethoven's music as well as of others (Chopin, specifically--I purchased a set of the Nocturnes and listened to them with the scores. I came away from that experience much disappointed.)

We could argue about Bach until the cows come home without any affect. I, too, have some issues with Bach, but for different reasons than you. On the other hand I have discovered things about Bach that I truly love and find incomparable in other composers.

I have confessed here many times before I'm not really a classical music fan per se, but there was something about Beethoven's music that caught my imagination. Through him I have listened to a hell of a lot of other composers music and found it wanting in some respect or other compared to Beethoven. I thought no other had this 'magic formula' until I heard Handel's Op6 concertos - so you see, at one time I was even more polarised than I am now! For a long time I didn't even consider Handel, so low is he considered in the CM hierarchy. But there will be no more additions to my list.

I am aware that many people rate Bach the supreme composer of all. Perhaps if they heard my collection they would think differently. Who's to say?!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Absolutely, there is a wealth of glorious music out there both before and after Beethoven and to select just two of admittedly the highest peaks, but to dismiss the rest as boring and irrelevant seems rather narrow. It is certainly not the approach taken by Beethoven himself whose interest stretched back to Palestrina and beyond.

I have to agree. But I admit years ago I, too, was close minded to a lot of classical music which I just wasn't exposed too. Beethoven was my first love and always will be but my interests in classical music has expanded to other composers, music, and even other eras such as Baroque and Romantic. A lot of thanks has to go to this forum as I hae learned so much about the whole world of classical music here and it's a big one!

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
[B]
In regards to Barenboim, I am not surprised at your reaction. I have been much less than pleased with his interpretations of Beethoven's music as well as of others (Chopin, specifically--I purchased a set of the Nocturnes and listened to them with the scores. I came away from that experience much disappointed.)

B]

Give Murray Perahia a try. I love his Chopin Etudes, Opus 10, Opus 25 and how he plays them. Very good.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:


I thought no other had this 'magic formula' until I heard Handel's Op6 concertos - so you see, at one time I was even more polarised than I am now! For a long time I didn't even consider Handel, so low is he considered in the CM hierarchy. But there will be no more additions to my list.

You would have loved what they played on the classical radio yesterday. The full length Handel's Messiah conducted by the late Robert Shaw. Plus an organ concerto that they said Handel himself used to perform on stage before The Messiah. It was Handel all afternoon. I haven't heard the entire Messiah in years. It was a treat. Very enjoyable.

Joy

[BKistner]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I don't understand this,as far as I have read
Rod has never suggested that you should feel about Bach as he does,he simply states his opinion take it or leave it.
But his opinion really seems to annoy you?

spaceray,
you are right. It really annoys me.

Our communication is dominated by body language, 80%, so the communications scientists say. The remaining 20% are divided into 3/4 how we say something and only 1/4 of content, of what we say. Makes a sad 5% in total for content.
Email and forum communication is restricted to the 20% but we all, including me, are usually not permanently aware this is the case: makes the whole show even more dangerous.

i am quoting from a post i made at the audio forum i used to be moderator at. What annoys me is not what he says. But how he says it and the high volume he uses. And the incredible persistence in persecuting any statement not fully aligned with his point of view (IMO). I cannot help feeling being exposed to militant intolerance. I cannot help feeling that my temple is desecrated, my temple is J.S.Bach, i confess that.

I cannot remember i have heaped scorn or absolute downranking statements on Händel, quite the opposite, Rod's enthusiasm has triggered me to take a closer look and to enjoy it.
Oops forgot one: the historical statement concerning the new mental horizons, but that personal opinion was backupped by referencing a historian in the other thread.
But that had nothing to do with the music itself.
-----------------
Bernhard

[Rod]

Originally posted by BKistner:
What annoys me is not what he says. But how he says it and the high volume he uses.

I have been told exactly this before. I'm an Aries!

Originally posted by BKistner:

And the incredible persistence in persecuting any statement not fully aligned with his point of view (IMO). I cannot help feeling being exposed to militant intolerance. I cannot help feeling that my temple is desecrated, my temple is J.S.Bach, i confess that.

At least Bach has a temple to be desecrated. By comparison Handel has only a shack! Even most people at a Handel Forum I was once a member (a very Establishment site, run be miserable old gits) rated Bach higher. When I told them that Beethoven thought H was the greatest they said words to the effect that Beethoven was mad!

Originally posted by BKistner:

I cannot remember i have heaped scorn or absolute downranking statements on Händel, quite the opposite, Rod's enthusiasm has triggered me to take a closer look and to enjoy it.

I never accused you of anything. However if your curiosity has been awakened then I have had at least one success, whether you think this is the case or not!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 17, 2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have confessed here many times before I'm not really a classical music fan per se, but there was something about Beethoven's music that caught my imagination. Through him I have listened to a hell of a lot of other composers music and found it wanting in some respect or other compared to Beethoven. I thought no other had this 'magic formula' until I heard Handel's Op6 concertos - so you see, at one time I was even more polarised than I am now! For a long time I didn't even consider Handel, so low is he considered in the CM hierarchy. But there will be no more additions to my list.

I am aware that many people rate Bach the supreme composer of all. Perhaps if they heard my collection they would think differently. Who's to say?!

Last night I caught the last half of a radio program that featured Handel's works. Many were excerpts from Messiah. It seemed to be some sort of dramatization but coming in the middle I really couldn't make out what the jist of it was. But the music was very fine and I enjoyed listening to it very much. I admit that I have underrated Handel--yet I have always liked what I've heard of him. As for Bach, in truth I prefer to listen to and play Handel. Yet I have to look to Bach for his harmonic and contrapuntal contributions to music (I have been a student of theory and composition).

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
At least Bach has a temple to be desecrated. By comparison Handel has only a shack! Even most people at a Handel Forum I was once a member (a very Establishment site, run be miserable old gits) rated Bach higher. When I told them that Beethoven thought H was the greatest they said words to the effect that Beethoven was mad!

Rod,
But Beethoven WAS mad! What else but the quality that society has dubbed 'madness' would allow a man to persevere through the setbacks of his life and suceed at such a high level? Where we as a society err is to place a derogatory connotation on madness. It is the stuff that genius is made of. As for Handel v Bach, my own opinion is that they both made worthwhile contributions to the world of music. Neither is a 'god', as I have heard them described. Neither ia a genius, eother. There are, at most, 2.5 geniuses in the history of music;
1.) W. A. Mozart
2.) L. v. Beethoven (even with the affected 'von')
3.) Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy (he's the .5, just not mad enough, I guess ;-))

Every one else, and I say this with love in my heart, is an 'also-ran'. I treasure much of their music, but thay just don't have it like those above. IMHO.
Regards, Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
But Beethoven WAS mad! What else but the quality that society has dubbed 'madness' would allow a man to persevere through the setbacks of his life and suceed at such a high level? Where we as a society err is to place a derogatory connotation on madness. It is the stuff that genius is made of. As for Handel v Bach, my own opinion is that they both made worthwhile contributions to the world of music. Neither is a 'god', as I have heard them described. Neither ia a genius, eother. There are, at most, 2.5 geniuses in the history of music;
1.) W. A. Mozart
2.) L. v. Beethoven (even with the affected 'von')
3.) Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy (he's the .5, just not mad enough, I guess ;-))

Every one else, and I say this with love in my heart, is an 'also-ran'. I treasure much of their music, but thay just don't have it like those above. IMHO.
Regards, Gurn

I'd say Beethoven was perfectly sane and it's the rest of the world that's mad!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited December 25, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] At least Bach has a temple; Handel barely has a shack!

Handel's operas are inceasingly popular in New York at least. Here is a quote from the New York City Opera website on the Handel 'Flavio' which they are doing this spring: 'The latest in City Opera's highly acclaimed series of works by George Frideric Handel. Past productions, including Rinaldo, Xerxes, and Partenope, have played to sold-out houses and critical praise.'

Unfortunately the acoustics at this house are very dull and dry because it is really a ballet theatre.

There are also concert versions of Handel's operas here at Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center, and a fairly steady reporting in the press of an ongoing Handel rediscovery.
process.

[Gurn Blanston]

[quote]Originally posted by Chaszz:
[b]

Originally posted by Rod:
At least Bach has a temple; Handel barely has a shack!

Handel's operas are inceasingly popular in New York at least. Here is a quote from the New York City Opera website on the Handel 'Flavio' which they are doing this spring: 'The latest in City Opera's highly acclaimed series of works by George Frideric Handel. Past productions, including Rinaldo, Xerxes, and Partenope, have played to sold-out houses and critical praise.'

Unfortunately the acoustics at this house are very dull and dry because it is really a ballet theatre.

There are also concert versions of Handel's operas here at Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center, and a fairly steady reporting in the press of an ongoing Handel rediscovery.
process.

All,
I notice that the "Bach v Handel" thread is languishing at 188, which must be a source of consternation to Rod since it didn't make 200 like Andrea's did. However, if all the overflow discussion that has made it to this and other threads gets put back to B v H, I think we can put it over the top, maybe even surpassing "Quote of the Day". Oh, all right, just me being anti-baroque. And yet, I love Vivaldi, for the simple reason that he was the first composer in the classical style that eventually led away from baroque and into my guys, namely HM&B. If that inflames enough of you, perhaps I will start a new thread for it. ;-) Meanwhile,
Best Regards, Gurn

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
All,
I notice that the "Bach v Handel" thread is languishing at 188, which must be a source of consternation to Rod since it didn't make 200 like Andrea's did. However, if all the overflow discussion that has made it to this and other threads gets put back to B v H, I think we can put it over the top, maybe even surpassing "Quote of the Day". Oh, all right, just me being anti-baroque. And yet, I love Vivaldi, for the simple reason that he was the first composer in the classical style that eventually led away from baroque and into my guys, namely HM&B. If that inflames enough of you, perhaps I will start a new thread for it. ;-) Meanwhile,
Best Regards, Gurn

I have one or two mp3s by Bach which I will soon add there, I'm just being lazy lately. By the way, who is 'H' in your 2.5 supreme genius list? You listed it on the other thread as Mozart, Beethoven and 1/2 Mendelssohn. So which M is missing here, and who is the H being added?

(A list to which I, IMHO, would add Bach and Wagner and subtract the 0.5 Mendelssohn).

[spaceray]

He must mean Haydn!