Dream concert

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Oh, BTW, the Nazis for awfully fond of Beethoven too. I don't hold HIM responsible for the Holocaust either, and from what I know of the man he would have been every bit as repelled by their philosophy as I am. Hardly fits the Enlightenment concept of Elysium, does it? The difference between B and W is in their personal views, at least to me.
Regards, Gurn

I agree totally and assure you that as a person I find Wagner quite repugnant - I wouldn't say that about the Liebstod from Tristan though!



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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree totally and assure you that as a person I find Wagner quite repugnant - I wouldn't say that about the Liebstod from Tristan though!

Peter, how about the whole 40-minute love duet from the second act, of which the Act 3 Liebestod is really a later continuation? This music, and especially Brangane's warnings, transports me to quite another sphere of being.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree totally and assure you that as a person I find Wagner quite repugnant - I wouldn't say that about the Liebstod from Tristan though!

Inasmuch as much of Wagner's music deals with the theme of redemption I get the feeling that Wagner himself had a poor self concept.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
...I'm not saying that Wagner was responsible for Nazism, what I'm saying is that Wagner held personal views that were morally repugnant to me and to others (they were NOT the general view of the time, although fairly widespread).... Regards, Gurn

Gurn,

Some historian should do a book on whether or not antisemitism was the general dominant view in the West in the later 19th and early 20th centuries. Maybe there is a book out there on this, probably there is, I don't know. I do know that antisemitism was very accepted and fashionable everywhere. Even Jews who surrounded Wagner and other Jews were scornful of their own backgrounds as Jews. Many converted to Christianity, including Mendelsohn's family and Mahler. Schoenberg approved of the glorification of the German race and considered himself German and not Jewish, until after WWII when he stressed his Jewishness. Henry Ford was an open and generous supporter of Hitler right until the war, and thousands of Hitler's trucks were Fords. IBM supplied the card-punch machines which the Third Reich ran its deadly information on. The prevalance of antisemitism kept growing right up to and into WWII. In my opinion it was the prevalence of this view which allowed Roosevelt to ignore the knowledge he had of the death camps and not bomb the railway lines. Antisemitism as an attitude did not really begin to be WIDELY criticised and refuted until the gates of the camps were opened and the public looked in.

Wagner in his day was only one of the most prominent and insistent of antisemites, regarded as a hero by countless others because he spoke his mind bluntly rather than tactfully. Whether his was the majority or minority opinion is, I think, open to question.




[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 15, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Gurn,

Some historian should do a book on whether or not antisemitism was the general dominant view in the West in the later 19th and early 20th centuries. Maybe there is a book out there on this, probably there is, I don't know. I do know that antisemitism was very accepted and fashionable everywhere. Even Jews who surrounded Wagner and other Jews were scornful of their own backgrounds as Jews. Many converted to Christianity, including Mendelsohn's family and Mahler. Schoenberg approved of the glorification of the German race and considered himself German and not Jewish, until after WWII when he stressed his Jewishness. Henry Ford was an open and generous supporter of Hitler right until the war, and thousands of Hitler's trucks were Fords. IBM supplied the card-punch machines which the Third Reich ran its deadly information on. The prevalance of antisemitism kept growing right up to and into WWII. In my opinion it was the prevalence of this view which allowed Roosevelt to ignore the knowledge he had of the death camps and not bomb the railway lines. Antisemitism as an attitude did not really begin to be WIDELY criticised and refuted until the gates of the camps were opened and the public looked in.

Wagner in his day was only one of the most prominent and insistent of antisemites, regarded as a hero by countless others because he spoke his mind bluntly rather than tactfully. Whether his was the majority or minority opinion is, I think, open to question.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 15, 2003).]

Chaszz,
Well there's no doubt that anti-semitism was widespread, but it was not universal. I think that artists and people of fame and influence are in a unique position to induce public opinion. and unfortunately Wagner used his power in a negative way. I don't think he was responsible for the aftermath of that, since there are plenty of twisted people in the world who can take advantage of any opening to maximize the potency of their message, and that is what happened here. Anti-semitism has been around at least since the beginning of christianity, it comes and goes on a cyclical basis. Historically, the jews were merely driven out and all their possessions stolen from them, it took Hitler to bring 20th century technology and teutonic efficiency to such a state. But his thinking was impelled by Wagner and others of his persuasion, no doubt about that. If enough powerful and influential people tell you (indirectly, but you don't recognize that) that your ideas are correct, soon you will believe it enough to convince others, and that's where power derives, in the ability to get people to believe you know the answers. I'm probably a bit over the top disliking Wagner for these reasons, but one must be true to oneself I think.
Regards, Gurn