Behind the Diabelli Variations

[Peter]

I tend to agree with you Serge - I do thank Rod though for changing my opinion which used to be firmly in the 'modern' camp - now I am far more open and can accept performances on either authentic or modern, provided they are of an artistic quality that does justice to B. I think you are also right to make the point that in 10 years time your views will probably have changed - that shows that you have an open and intuitive mind - the only healthy way to be !

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'Man know thyself'

[Luis]

I once read that one of B’s greatest achievements regarding this variations was to review almost all his piano work. I haven’t heard ALL B’s piano music but at least half of it was published and for sure all his ‘major’ works on this instrument, but still I haven’t noticed one single relation to previous works. Am I listening wrong or what I read wasn’t right?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
All this discussion seems to prove a point I made here some while back; that interpretation is always going to be an issue in classical music and that it is a good thing. I seem to recall some dissention to that opinion of mine, though...
Chris likes Beethoven on modern instruments, Rod has other ideas about that. Personally, I agree with Chris. The sound of modern instuments, which I've grown up around, makes period instruments sound light and flimsy. That is a PERSONAL opinion, and does not forevermore make Beethoven on period instruments useless. Ten years from now, I may have swung all the way round to Rod's side. But if I do, I won't fight with others about my opinion because it is just that: an OPINION. If I'd grown up listening to Beethoven transcribed for panflutes and tribal drums, I'd say the sound of western flutes and timpani are too odd for me to like. It is because of this difference in opinion that leads to diff. interpretations that allows listeners to choose what they like best. Do I like the sound of Bach's organ work transcribed for modern orchestra? Hell yeah! Does anyone else? Doesn't matter to me. It's all opinion.

Well, I've been listening to Beethoven for 15 years, and for half of that time I listened to nothing but modern interpretations, I spent a fortune buying virtually the complete works twice over. Yet I was not happy with most of it, and had to ask myself was it the music itself that was not right was was it something else? Having satisfied myself that the fault lay not with Beethoven, I was forced to look at the interpretation and the instruments. My judgement is not solely opinion. I am not a fan of the old instruments in themselves, it is just that ultimately they are more appropriate. I won't take anyone seriously who suggests that the 13 year old Beethoven was thinking of a Steinway when he wrote the 'Bonn' sonatas. Thus I would like to know when it was that Beethoven suddenly received this revelation that he was really writing for the instruments and playing techniques of 100 years in the future. With those who simply like the sound of modern instruments, well, that IS opinion and I can live with it quite easily. But is has little to do with Beethoven. My own position is firmly rooted in FACT.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:
I once read that one of B’s greatest achievements regarding this variations was to review almost all his piano work....

If it is being suggested that B was conciously making references to his earlier music in these variations, this is the first time I've heard of such a suggestion. But It's the sort of fanciful Idea one often reads from 'academics' and performers.

Rod



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I won't take anyone seriously who suggests that the 13 year old Beethoven was thinking of a Steinway when he wrote the 'Bonn' sonatas. Thus I would like to know when it was that Beethoven suddenly received this revelation that he was really writing for the instruments and playing techniques of 100 years in the future. With those who simply like the sound of modern instruments, well, that IS opinion and I can live with it quite easily. But is has little to do with Beethoven. My own position is firmly rooted in FACT.

Rod

Well re. the late Quartets at least Beethoven did say that they were for another age. I think Beethoven was very aware of posterity and knew his works would last and be performed - hence my earlier point - why didn't he stipulate that on no account were his works to be performed on instruments other than those he was familiar with ?
When it comes to Facts, Facts and more Facts (Dickens Mr.Gradgrind comes to mind !) - we know that Beethoven did not say that his sonatas from the 1780's and 90's were not to be performed on a piano of the 1820's. We know that he must have performed Bach's 48 on an instrument disliked by Bach - or was Bach writing for an imaginary future instrument as well ? We have no knowledge as to whether or not Beethoven would have approved of the modern piano - We do know that every composer including and after Beethoven has made use of the modern instruments available . I am utterly convinced that the benefits of the modern piano outweigh the disadvantages and that Beethoven would concur - that of course is opinion !

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well re. the late Quartets at least Beethoven did say that they were for another age. I think Beethoven was very aware of posterity and knew his works would last and be performed - hence my earlier point - why didn't he stipulate that on no account were his works to be performed on instruments other than those he was familiar with ?
When it comes to Facts, Facts and more Facts (Dickens Mr.Gradgrind comes to mind !) - we know that Beethoven did not say that his sonatas from the 1780's and 90's were not to be performed on a piano of the 1820's. We know that he must have performed Bach's 48 on an instrument disliked by Bach - or was Bach writing for an imaginary future instrument as well ? We have no knowledge as to whether or not Beethoven would have approved of the modern piano - We do know that every composer including and after Beethoven has made use of the modern instruments available . I am utterly convinced that the benefits of the modern piano outweigh the disadvantages and that Beethoven would concur - that of course is opinion !

I suggest that by 'another age', Beethoven meant 'another state of mind' rather than anything to do with instruments. Regarding Bach, I'm sure he was impressed with a piano by Stein that he was shown on some occasion, if my memory serves me right.

The pianos of the 1820's were not fundamentally that different sonically from that of 1800 or earlier, for the action remained basically the same. Or at least not so different that one developes a preference of one over the other. The increase in volume is apparent, but is still within reasonable limits. I have a few recordings of early B pieces played on 5 octave and 6.5 octave Viennese fp's and the essential qualities are the same with both. It is only when you hear the pieces played on early English actioned pianos that the impression changes. One is awar immediately that one is listening to a quite different instrument.

Regarding B and the '48', we have discussed this, and I have stated my position already, in another chain.

Yet again I will say it is not a matter of whether he would have approved of the modern instrument. I suggest if he did, he would have wrote music somewhat differently to what he would otherwise have done for the Viennese fortepiano - which to a certain extent could be regarded as a different instrument altogether. If this is true, then the best option for what he did compose lies with the fp.

The principle value of the modern instrument lies in that it is designed for large concert halls alongside correspondinly large orchestras, however, B's piano music was not on the whole written with such performance circumstances in mind. Certainly not the sonatas and chamber music.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

My judgement is not solely opinion. I am not a fan of the old instruments in themselves, it is just that ultimately they are more appropriate. I won't take anyone seriously who suggests that the 13 year old Beethoven was thinking of a Steinway when he wrote the 'Bonn' sonatas. Thus I would like to know when it was that Beethoven suddenly received this revelation that he was really writing for the instruments and playing techniques of 100 years in the future. With those who simply like the sound of modern instruments, well, that IS opinion and I can live with it quite easily. But is has little to do with Beethoven. My own position is firmly rooted in FACT.

Rod

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not disagreeing, Rod! You seem to think no one here believes you when you say Beethoven wrote for instruments of his own time, or that it is just possible that Beethoven would sound more authentic played on such period instruments, but that isn't the issue, really, because it's all true. Like I said, it's personal. Yes, Beethoven played "authentically" is likely more true to the spirit of the music. Doesn't mean, though, that Beethoven's music must ALWAYS be played 'authentically' for the listener to understand the music. Unless I'm completely misreading you, you intend to let the fact be known that B. 'sounds' better on period pieces. For purists, that's likely their position as well.
For people more willing to accept the idea that music adapts through the space of years, then those Bonn sonatas played on a baby grand can sound just as nice and be just as worthwhile as the same played on a fortepiano. The interpretation involved in playing the work on a more resonant piano can even help bring out qualities in the music not apparent before. Just as a painter can produce a painting and 100 years later see the artwork take on a whole new representational meaning. No one can look at anything only one way forever.
I think this whole hornet's nest has lost a little focus, but I would like to reiterate a few things:
1.) Rod is right to say B. sounds more 'authentic' on period pieces.
2.) Chris is equally right to say B. sounds better on modern pieces, no matter when the work was composed.
3.) No matter which position one takes, and whether it's founded in 'fact' (like Rod's) or not makes no difference. The score itself to most works has remained pretty much inviolate over the centuries, so, again, whether you listen to a work authentically or not, you are still hearing the composer's original notes.
4.) The beauty of a free country is often found in the amount of choice people are allowed (even in music!).

While I'm sure this issue will continue, I think I've said my piece. No one here is wrong, because there is no right answer!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:

I'm not disagreeing, Rod! You seem to think no one here believes you when you say Beethoven wrote for instruments of his own time, or that it is just possible that Beethoven would sound more authentic played on such period instruments, but that isn't the issue, really, because it's all true. Like I said, it's personal. Yes, Beethoven played "authentically" is likely more true to the spirit of the music. Doesn't mean, though, that Beethoven's music must ALWAYS be played 'authentically' for the listener to understand the music. Unless I'm completely misreading you, you intend to let the fact be known that B. 'sounds' better on period pieces. For purists, that's likely their position as well.
For people more willing to accept the idea that music adapts through the space of years, then those Bonn sonatas played on a baby grand can sound just as nice and be just as worthwhile as the same played on a fortepiano. The interpretation involved in playing the work on a more resonant piano can even help bring out qualities in the music not apparent before. Just as a painter can produce a painting and 100 years later see the artwork take on a whole new representational meaning. No one can look at anything only one way forever.
I think this whole hornet's nest has lost a little focus, but I would like to reiterate a few things:
1.) Rod is right to say B. sounds more 'authentic' on period pieces.
2.) Chris is equally right to say B. sounds better on modern pieces, no matter when the work was composed.
3.) No matter which position one takes, and whether it's founded in 'fact' (like Rod's) or not makes no difference. The score itself to most works has remained pretty much inviolate over the centuries, so, again, whether you listen to a work authentically or not, you are still hearing the composer's original notes.
4.) The beauty of a free country is often found in the amount of choice people are allowed (even in music!).

While I'm sure this issue will continue, I think I've said my piece. No one here is wrong, because there is no right answer![/B]

I agree that B's music does not HAVE to be played authentically to get the musical message across, I still have quite a few modern style recordings in my 'a-list'. But they are still essentially transcriptions, albeit very 'close' transcriptions, and this is always in the back of my mind when I listen to them. Thus they can never be 'ulta' first class, which is the standard I seek these days, and for the record I do believe the music sounds better on the old instruments.

With regard to the 'Bonn' sonatas (WoO47) I have recordings of these on a modern and also an old 5 octave piano and after listening to these in comparison, I can safely say that not a single person reading this would select the Steinway version, whose thick tone is wholely inapropriate for music of this nature. And one does not need more resonance than the Viennese pianos offer to play Beethoven correctly. Modern instruments are in fact too resonant to play Beethoven in the required dynamic style. One gets the excitement of an instrument being pushed to its limits using a Walter or Schantz, wheras on a Steinway, one has to holdback somewhat and thus this particular sensation is lost.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Regarding Bach, I'm sure he was impressed with a piano by Stein that he was shown on some occasion, if my memory serves me right.

The pianos of the 1820's were not fundamentally that different sonically from that of 1800 or earlier, for the action remained basically the same. Or at least not so different that one developes a preference of one over the other.

Yet again I will say it is not a matter of whether he would have approved of the modern instrument. I suggest if he did, he would have wrote music somewhat differently to what he would otherwise have done for the Viennese fortepiano - which to a certain extent could be regarded as a different instrument altogether. If this is true, then the best option for what he did compose lies with the fp.


Rod

Yes Bach was impressed by a piano he heard at the end of his life - proving that it is possible that he may have approved even more of a modern piano. I know of no cases where a composer at the end of his life has lamented the innovations in instrumental design during his lifetime- quite the opposite.
I thought the action of the piano had been revolutionised by Erard's double escapement from 1809.
By approving of the modern piano I do not mean had it been available to him then, I mean if he could come back and hear his works performed on modern pianos now that I think he would approve.
I think it ludicrous to describe Beethoven played on modern pianos as a transcription.The modern piano is merely the culmination of 150 years in design. It is as daft as saying that an automobile from 1890 is not the same species as a motor car of today.You imply that there is a change from horse and cart to motor car.That would be a transcription.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes Bach was impressed by a piano he heard at the end of his life - proving that it is possible that he may have approved even more of a modern piano. I know of no cases where a composer at the end of his life has lamented the innovations in instrumental design during his lifetime- quite the opposite.
I thought the action of the piano had been revolutionised by Erard's double escapement from 1809.
By approving of the modern piano I do not mean had it been available to him then, I mean if he could come back and hear his works performed on modern pianos now that I think he would approve.
I think it ludicrous to describe Beethoven played on modern pianos as a transcription.The modern piano is merely the culmination of 150 years in design. It is as daft as saying that an automobile from 1890 is not the same species as a motor car of today.You imply that there is a change from horse and cart to motor car.That would be a transcription.

I admire your nerve in suggesting that Bach's appreciation of the Stein can in some way deduced as an appreciation of SteinWAY! Nevertheless, this is not the issue as I have never said that B would have dissaproved of the Steinway. I just say that he didn't compose for it or even for an instrument of its English actioned nature.

Erard's double escapement action only cured to some extent a fault that existed only in English actioned piano's (as made by Erard themselves). Beethoven described his own Erard as being unplayable and that he could do nothing with it. He even asked if he could have its action replaced with a Viennese one!

I suggest that if B was here today he would accept, regardless of his impression of the modern instrument, that his compositions were better suited to todays fp replicas!

'Transcription' may sound ludicrous to some, but it would sound correct to others. I suggest you compare pictures of the action of a Walter with that of a modern Steinway. I think there is enough difference there to justify my remark.

Regarding cars, why is it that the best of the older models are so valueable and sought after? I'd rather have a Mercedes roadster from the 1930's (or earlier) than one of their current sport models! Quite simply, these old cars have something that time and technology can not improve upon and it still in demand!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Regarding cars, why is it that the best of the older models are so valueable and sought after? I'd rather have a Mercedes roadster from the 1930's (or earlier) than one of their current sport models! Quite simply, these old cars have something that time and technology can not improve upon and it still in demand!

Rod

Having witnessed the old crocs London-Brighton run on Sunday in the pouring rain and seen the people getting drenched as they tried to shield themselves with umbrellas, plus the umpteem 'casualties' on the road-side - I for one am glad of the improvements in technology !
One point that has not been made here in regard to FP's is the frequency of broken strings - whilst this does occur on modern pianos (my Bluthner seems particularly keen on this in the top register) it is rare in performance.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Having witnessed the old crocs London-Brighton run on Sunday in the pouring rain and seen the people getting drenched as they tried to shield themselves with umbrellas, plus the umpteem 'casualties' on the road-side - I for one am glad of the improvements in technology !
One point that has not been made here in regard to FP's is the frequency of broken strings - whilst this does occur on modern pianos (my Bluthner seems particularly keen on this in the top register) it is rare in performance.

Even the Model T came in a version with a roof, just for people like you! The fact that I regularly break the strings of my Gibson SG does not mean I should dump the best solid electric guitar ever made! I would accept a superior strength modern string on the fp as long as the sound and action remained unaffected (ie if the string was of an increased weight and thus requires a heavier action to activate its sound).

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

I agree with you actually ! I would love to own a viennese Erard and to perform Beethoven sonatas on one - my opinion on this issue differs from yours only in that I see nothing wrong in performing B on modern instruments as well (not necessarily a Steinway ! ) - So you have educated me into seeing the argument FOR authentic instruments but I am not convinced by the argument AGAINST modern instruments.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

I agree with you actually ! I would love to own a viennese Erard and to perform Beethoven sonatas on one - my opinion on this issue differs from yours only in that I see nothing wrong in performing B on modern instruments as well (not necessarily a Steinway ! ) - So you have educated me into seeing the argument FOR authentic instruments but I am not convinced by the argument AGAINST modern instruments.

I'll be surprised if you can find a Viennese Erard, Erard is a French company, who became the mortal enemy of Steinway in later years. I suggest the argiments FOR using modern instruments are to do with convenience, finance and commerciality. The arguments AGAINST are to do with music.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Sorry for the mistake - I knew Erard had a French base, but I thought there was also a Viennese factory as well.
With quite a few firms now offering reproductions of Fortepianos it will be interesting to see further developments and if your commercial arguments really hold up.

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'Man know thyself'