Behind the Diabelli Variations

[Chris]

I don't care what he was thinking. I care only about what I think sounds good. I think everything up to Beethoven sounds "better" on period instruments. From Beethoven to present sounds "better" on modern instruments. I can accept some arguments that say music should be played on the instruments for which it was written, but that has nothing to do with what I find appealing. I could pay for a CD set with period instuments and sit there and feel proud I am listening to the music played on the instruments that the composer knew, or I could buy a set with modern instruments, and sit down and enjoy the music. Guess which one I will pick?

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I don't care what he was thinking. I care only about what I think sounds good. I think everything up to Beethoven sounds "better" on period instruments. From Beethoven to present sounds "better" on modern instruments. I can accept some arguments that say music should be played on the instruments for which it was written, but that has nothing to do with what I find appealing. I could pay for a CD set with period instuments and sit there and feel proud I am listening to the music played on the instruments that the composer knew, or I could buy a set with modern instruments, and sit down and enjoy the music. Guess which one I will pick?

By circa 1850 all the instruments used by composers were virually the same as they are now, thus the composers from this time onward (up to today) were (are) composing with 'authentic' instuments. And you accept that composers prior to Beethoven sound better with 'authentic intruments'. Thus, by your own words, Beethoven is unique in the history of music. The only composer who could not write for his own instruments.

What about Haydn and B's other contemporaries, Chris? Haydn's music is greatly elevated on period instruments from what I've heard. Even Schubert is 'saved' to a limited extent.

I'm not even talking about cd interpretations, which are of variable quality with both modern and period styles. I am talking about which intruments have the maximum potental to render B's notes as sound in the manner he would have heard or anticipated in deafness. Bearing this in mind, if you still stick by your assertions, then B was a pretty poor composer, and was only 'saved' by subsequent instrument development.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
By circa 1850 all the instruments used by composers were virually the same as they are now, thus the composers from this time onward (up to today) were (are) composing with 'authentic' instuments. And you accept that composers prior to Beethoven sound better with 'authentic intruments'. Thus, by your own words, Beethoven is unique in the history of music. The only composer who could not write for his own instruments.

What about Haydn and B's other contemporaries, Chris? Haydn's music is greatly elevated on period instruments from what I've heard. Even Schubert is 'saved' to a limited extent.

I'm not even talking about cd interpretations, which are of variable quality with both modern and period styles. I am talking about which intruments have the maximum potental to render B's notes as sound in the manner he would have heard or anticipated in deafness. Bearing this in mind, if you still stick by your assertions, then B was a pretty poor composer, and was only 'saved' by subsequent instrument development.

Rod

I think Haydn and others of that period sound best on period instruments (usually). As I have said before, though, my liking Beethoven on modern instruments does not mean he couldn't write for his own instruments. It means something came along which happens to make his music sound better. Beethoven could not have planned for something that did not exist yet. He wrote the best he could for what he had. It was great - far above what anyone else had done. It just happens that something that was invented later makes the music sound better to me. I don't think (unlike you, I would guess) that anything essential is lost in going period to modern instruments. At any rate, I certainly feel more is gained than lost. Still, though, it is just a matter of what I like to hear, and not any matter of musical philosophy, or whatever.


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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I think Haydn and others of that period sound best on period instruments (usually). As I have said before, though, my liking Beethoven on modern instruments does not mean he couldn't write for his own instruments. It means something came along which happens to make his music sound better. Beethoven could not have planned for something that did not exist yet. He wrote the best he could for what he had. It was great - far above what anyone else had done. It just happens that something that was invented later makes the music sound better to me. I don't think (unlike you, I would guess) that anything essential is lost in going period to modern instruments. At any rate, I certainly feel more is gained than lost. Still, though, it is just a matter of what I like to hear, and not any matter of musical philosophy, or whatever.

I'm not talking philosophy, just pure logic. There are important differences between these instruments, not just the sound but also the methods required to play them that affect what we hear also. Why do you admit Mozart may sound better if their is no significant difference? Why did the new instruments not improve Mozart etc. also?

I for one believe that if music does not sound the best on the instruments the composer was considering, then it is not particularly good music. Thus by definition, the fact that you prefer what is essentially a transcription of B's music would, to me, mean that the music has only been 'made good' by men that followed (instrument makers and the techniques employed by performers to play them, in this case) and that, as it most likely stood in Beethovens mind at its conception, the music was something less. By default this must be what you believe, even if you can't accept it. I suggest I have probably spent more cash buying Beethoven's music played in the modern style on modern instruments than everyone else here put together, and I'm telling you it's only half Beethoven. For many people that's all they want, but not me.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[BobLombard]

Your notion of 'pure logic' is severely strained. Read your message over again, separate opinion from logic, and see what you end up with. Perhaps you'll decide that you and Chris are arguing opinions, which is a useless exersize.

[Rod]

Originally posted by BobLombard:
Your notion of 'pure logic' is severely strained. Read your message over again, separate opinion from logic, and see what you end up with. Perhaps you'll decide that you and Chris are arguing opinions, which is a useless exersize.

On the contrary, my argument is based fundamentally on Chris's own statements. Where my personal opinions only come into it this is obvious. But you must see the logic contradiction whereby Beethoven, the greatest of all composers, is the only composer whose music sounds inferior on instruments that he made use of daily. This is the 'logic' of Chris's opinion. Not 'pure' logic I admit, but there's a logic answer of sorts that needs to be justified. Unless you see these remarks in a totally different light. There was a time not so long ago when Baroque music was played predominantly on modern instruments, today who would deny that authentic Baroque emsemble offer a vastly superior 'alternative'!! Virtually all the music in the Handel section of the CD stores in London are now 'authentic', many of which are award winners.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

You're still missing the point, Rod. Nowhere to I claim that modern instruments make Beethoven's music better. I only claim that I find his music on modern instuments more appealing. Beethoven on period instruments may be better than all other composers on any type on instuments, but I still think Beethoven on modern instuments sounds better. It's just what I like to hear and nothing more.

Just to continue the discussion, however, I must disagree with this statement:

"I for one believe that if music does not sound the best on the instruments the composer was considering, then it is not particularly good music."

I would accept that in terms of instruments used before the piece was composed, but how can you say Beethoven's music could not sound better on instuments that came after him? There is no way he could anticipate what those would be like. Beethoven did not sit down and say, "Whoa, can't write that - that will sound better in 200 years." He wrote the best he could for what he had. I just don't see "not the same as the composers exact vision" as being the same as "worse". In general, I don't see modern instruments as losing anything essential from their period counterparts when it comes to Beethoven. Different, yes. In a way that matters, no. In a way, I think it makes a lot of sense that I would find Beethoven's music the only music I like "out of context" because if any composer's music could be said to transcend specifics, it is Beethoven's. Now, I know what you are going to say to that - you are going to say that mastery over those specifics is what makes his music great. That is true, but I mean to say that Beethoven's music is far more than the sum of its parts. More so than anyone else's.

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Peter]

Thought I'd chip in here - since Beethoven was one of the first composers to give us really accurate instructions as to how he wished his music to be performed, and knowing as he did that there would be advances in the design of musical instruments (the piano had come a long way in his own life-time)- surely he was rather remiss in not stating that on no account was his music to be played on instruments other than those he was familiar with ? Or do you suppose he thought the piano had reached its full potential and no further developments were possible or desirable?
Now Rod, don't take this as an anti-authentic instrument argument because it is not (and I have a lot more sympathy with your views on this subject than I did at first) - it is rather an argument in defence of modern instruments.

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'Man know thyself'

[BobLombard]

I'm not arguing modern instruments/forces versus their 'period' counterparts. I have no problem enjoying both, from pre-Baroque forward. I'm saying that the elements of logical argument can be slippery critters. The Sophists in Socrates time utilized that slipperiness(is that a word?). Symbolic logic was invented in an attempt to make logic 'sticky'. A listening preference for modern instruments in performances of Beethoven is not amenable to logical dissection. All that can be said is that such a preference is wrong. Shades of Stalin.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
You're still missing the point, Rod. Nowhere to I claim that modern instruments make Beethoven's music better. I only claim that I find his music on modern instuments more appealing. Beethoven on period instruments may be better than all other composers on any type on instuments, but I still think Beethoven on modern instuments sounds better. It's just what I like to hear and nothing more.

Just to continue the discussion, however, I must disagree with this statement:

"I for one believe that if music does not sound the best on the instruments the composer was considering, then it is not particularly good music."

I would accept that in terms of instruments used before the piece was composed, but how can you say Beethoven's music could not sound better on instuments that came after him? There is no way he could anticipate what those would be like. Beethoven did not sit down and say, "Whoa, can't write that - that will sound better in 200 years." He wrote the best he could for what he had. I just don't see "not the same as the composers exact vision" as being the same as "worse". In general, I don't see modern instruments as losing anything essential from their period counterparts when it comes to Beethoven. Different, yes. In a way that matters, no. In a way, I think it makes a lot of sense that I would find Beethoven's music the only music I like "out of context" because if any composer's music could be said to transcend specifics, it is Beethoven's. Now, I know what you are going to say to that - you are going to say that mastery over those specifics is what makes his music great. That is true, but I mean to say that Beethoven's music is far more than the sum of its parts. More so than anyone else's.

We are in danger of running around in circles now, but never mind, it's still better than the totally banale state that BDepot has degraded to. You are right in that I am missing your point, what is the difference between 'better' and 'more appealing'. For me they are mutually inclusive! And what's all this about 'he wrote the best he could for what he had'? It sounds almost apologetic!

With regard to the instruments, an important factor that I only vaguely alluded to earlier is that the progression in development has produced a corresponding change in perfomance techniques, thus whilst the music is actually performed in a differenct manner due to the different nature of the instruments. For example you cannot play a gut strung violin with bow from circa 1770 in the same manner you can a modern instrument and bow with high tension stringing, and this is reflected in the way you interpret the music. The infinitely long decay of a Steinway will encourage more long-winded interpretations of adagios than B could ever have imagined (eg the 25 minute adagio from op106!!). Thus the instrument and the interpretation are unavoidably linked. I could go on about tone thickness, colour, pitch, tuning etc...But fortunately for everyone I won't!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Rod:

Well, as I said, I don't think the changes that come about as a result of the instruments are important enough to make it a problem. As I said though, you kind of need to judge that piece by piece. Perhaps the real reason I like Beethoven on modern instruments is that I love modern instruments, and Beethoven is the earliest composer whose music can get away with using them (to my ear). I just love the way violins (and other strings) sound now. So clear and perfect. The horns are so much less, well, crappy ( ) now. And the pianos! The Steinway is the most beautiful sound in the world!

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Rod:

Well, as I said, I don't think the changes that come about as a result of the instruments are important enough to make it a problem. As I said though, you kind of need to judge that piece by piece. Perhaps the real reason I like Beethoven on modern instruments is that I love modern instruments, and Beethoven is the earliest composer whose music can get away with using them (to my ear). I just love the way violins (and other strings) sound now. So clear and perfect. The horns are so much less, well, crappy ( ) now. And the pianos! The Steinway is the most beautiful sound in the world!

Interesting you mention the piano and the horn. I've got 2 recordings of B's sonata for horn and piano and the difference between the two could not be greater. One recording is at the same time colourful electric and poignant, the other would send you to sleep, which explains why the work has been neglected until recently. I leave it to you to decide which was the authentic instrument version. I could say the same regarding op11 and op16. It is this colour and electricity that I miss most from modern instruments. Have you not heard Baroque timpani? The drum entry in the Scherzo of the 9th Symphony can never sound so fantastic on todays fat tubs compared with the old drums, which were a product of the battle field and sound pretty terrifying!

If you think the Steinway sounds beautiful I wish you could hear the original Graf used by Badura-Skoda, it's truely the piano of angels!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Actually, my favorite fortepiano sound comes from a recording I have of Mozart's Piano Concerto 23. Malcolm Bilson plays a replica of one of Mozart's pianos or something like that. Great sound. (Interestingly enough, that is one of the few occations where I think the period horns sound fantastic.)

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Actually, my favorite fortepiano sound comes from a recording I have of Mozart's Piano Concerto 23. Malcolm Bilson plays a replica of one of Mozart's pianos or something like that. Great sound. (Interestingly enough, that is one of the few occations where I think the period horns sound fantastic.)

I have numerous excellent recordings of B works by Bilson using 5 octave pianos similar to those in Mozarts day. Pieces such as Op2 and 5 especially benefit from these instruments.

The scherzo trio of the Eroica sound fantastic on natural horns, I can tell you.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

All this discussion seems to prove a point I made here some while back; that interpretation is always going to be an issue in classical music and that it is a good thing. I seem to recall some dissention to that opinion of mine, though...
Chris likes Beethoven on modern instruments, Rod has other ideas about that. Personally, I agree with Chris. The sound of modern instuments, which I've grown up around, makes period instruments sound light and flimsy. That is a PERSONAL opinion, and does not forevermore make Beethoven on period instruments useless. Ten years from now, I may have swung all the way round to Rod's side. But if I do, I won't fight with others about my opinion because it is just that: an OPINION. If I'd grown up listening to Beethoven transcribed for panflutes and tribal drums, I'd say the sound of western flutes and timpani are too odd for me to like. It is because of this difference in opinion that leads to diff. interpretations that allows listeners to choose what they like best. Do I like the sound of Bach's organ work transcribed for modern orchestra? Hell yeah! Does anyone else? Doesn't matter to me. It's all opinion.