Mozart's Jupiter

[Preston]

painter_mindscapes, I do apologize for the post I made. I actually think you have a very interesting point about Mozart's music sounding weak.

For many years, I have felt the same thing - a weak, claustrophobic, lacking any real depth, childish, etc. aura to his music. Though, that does not mean I am correct.

Do I think Mozart had the strength and power of Beethoven - NO - except with his Requiem (though that is only my opinion). Do I think that is a bad thing - NO.

I really don't know what to say except for a few points I believe are very important:

- Music is subjective and depends on the listener. Therefore I believe we must understand Mozart's personality (which is impossible to really understand another's mind).

- The positive thing, I think, is that Mozart's music is not brutally powerful - which is a good thing. Such as, do I want to feel power, weight, and strength etc. all the time - NO. So some Mozart is probably a very good thing, because it is peaceful - which "peace" is of extreme importance. NOT VIOLENCE BUT PEACE.

I could go on seeing as I have had a problem trying to figure out Mozart for many years, and most times, but not all, hear what you describe.

Though, I will just say this - I do understand where you are coming from. And, I hope you will continue to post.

[Michael]

Mozart's 41 is, along with 39, the very summit of his entire musical output. The silence at bar 80, followed by the tutti next bar, really has a terrific effect. This movement seems as if a legion of angels were blowing their trumpets. Its greatness itself. Then the thrice sublime 2nd mov comes. And after been allowed to rest in the 3rd, there comes the finale, and everything heard up to that moment is made pale. We hear from the people who know this fourth movement is a great demonstration of technical mastery. Never mind that. You may profoundly ignore harmony and counterpoint but, if you are truly human, you'll feel an extreme joy only because, by being alive, you have the opportunity of listening this.

Very well put!

[Enrique]

Mozart's 41 is, along with 39, the very summit of his entire musical output. The silence at bar 80, followed by the tutti next bar, really has a terrific effect. This movement seems as if a legion of angels were blowing their trumpets. Its greatness itself. Then the thrice sublime 2nd mov comes. And after been allowed to rest in the 3rd, there comes the finale, and everything heard up to that moment is made pale. We hear from the people who know this fourth movement is a great demonstration of technical mastery. Never mind that. You may profoundly ignore harmony and counterpoint but, if you are truly human, you'll feel an extreme joy only because, by being alive, you have the opportunity of listening this.

[Frankli]

I'm tired of reading all of the egghead's in ivory tower accolades and want to know what do real people think about this music. Especially the first few bars.

I find it lacking in power as the opening hook is weak.

thx

That's very interesting, PM! Also what you write in comparison to Beethoven.

But have you figured out the next thing already: that Beethoven borrowed a lot from Mozart, but Mozart borrowed nothing from Beethoven?
That's logical, you would answer. Yes, it is, but it also means that if you compare Mozart to Beethoven, you'll have to know and define what actually to compare. And how. Because now it seems as if you compare apples to pears.

What you might also realize: Mozart was one of the great inventors/developers of the classical style. In the classical style it is not the theme itself which is most interesting, but what the composer does with it. That is where he puts his creativity in. So what does Mozart do with "the first few bars"? I urge you to listen again. If you don't understand at all what I mean, then you'll have to, sorry to sound pedantic, learn the language first.

In case you really get interested after relistening this great piece of Mozart, you might want to read a little book: "Mozart: the 'Jupiter' Symphony" by Elaine R. Sisman (Cambridge University Press). She explains in exactly as many words as needed "the grand style and the sublime" behind Mozart 41. Concerning the start of this work she writes about musical rhetorics and the role of commonplaces, for a composer in order to define what is a topic and what isn't - just as a necessary service to the listener.

Since Aristotle's old rules of rhetorics apply to Mozart's instrumental style, reading Aristotle isn't such a bad idea, if you want to open up one of the veils veil between you and Mozart's music. It worked for me. In case you have no time, Ms. Sisman does a good job in explaining the connection.

______________
Listen. Think. Read. Listen again.

[Joy]

I'm sure glad you did!

Well, all right then I'll say it Beethoven Rocks!!!

[Joy]

Joy, if it had been the Wombles instead of the Beatles 'invading' the US just two months after JFK's assassination, I'm sure Womblemania would have lifted your country's spirits just as surely as Beatlemania did!

Well, I was very, very (and did I mention very young) then so it probably would have lifted my spirits!

[Sorrano]

There's still an asteroid named Beethoven up there somewhere. I was going to add a terrible pun about how "Beethoven rocks" but I resisted.

I'm sure glad you did!

[Michael]

So Jupiter lost velocity and fell out of orbit, huh?

There's still an asteroid named Beethoven up there somewhere. I was going to add a terrible pun about how "Beethoven rocks" but I resisted.

[PDG]

This is the weekend of the annual Hall of Fame poll on Classic FM. Oddly enough, Mozart's Jupiter has taken a huge dive this year - down 127 places from last year - to No. 231. ]

So Jupiter lost velocity and fell out of orbit, huh?

[PDG]

I think the Rachmaninov concerto has been in the top three for years and years. We certainly have not had a brief encounter with it.

Pun not gone unnoticed, Michael...

[PDG]

Ha! Ha! Very good. We in the U.S. missed that one in the 70's, darn! But we did have the 'Banana Splits'! Now I'll have that music in my head all day!

Joy, if it had been the Wombles instead of the Beatles 'invading' the US just two months after JFK's assassination, I'm sure Womblemania would have lifted your country's spirits just as surely as Beatlemania did!

[Joy]

At least we are managing to keep on-topic although I doubt if we are much help to the original poster.

This is the weekend of the annual Hall of Fame poll on Classic FM. Every year they announce the top 300 pieces of classical music as voted by listeners. Oddly enough, Mozart's Jupiter has taken a huge dive this year - down 127 places from last year - to No. 231. Quite a few of his popular hits have fallen down the charts while Beethoven's stock seems to be rising.

The final top ten will be featured this evening around eight or nine (GMT).


http://halloffame2012.classicfm.co.u...age=1#/300-291

Well, glad to hear that about Beethoven but poor ol' Mozart. Jupiter is one of his best IMHO.

[Preston]

I think the Rachmaninov concerto has been in the top three for years and years. We certainly have not had a brief encounter with it.

I don't think I have ever heard it - will have to give it a listening.

[Michael]

I think the Rachmaninov concerto has been in the top three for years and years. We certainly have not had a brief encounter with it.

[Preston]

At least we are managing to keep on-topic although I doubt if we are much help to the original poster.

This is the weekend of the annual Hall of Fame poll on Classic FM. Every year they announce the top 300 pieces of classical music as voted by listeners. Oddly enough, Mozart's Jupiter has taken a huge dive this year - down 127 places from last year - to No. 231. Quite a few of his popular hits have fallen down the charts while Beethoven's stock seems to be rising.

The final top ten will be featured this evening around eight or nine (GMT).


http://halloffame2012.classicfm.co.u...age=1#/300-291

So Rachmanivov Piano Concerto 2 beats Mozart's Requiem, Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, etc? Odd, it seems?

To all members, lurkers, etc.:
CHECK OUT NUMBER 16!!! IT IS A SURPRISE AND A GOOD ONE TOO, IMO!!!
http://halloffame2012.classicfm.co.u...l/?position=16