Of gods and language.

[AeolianHarp]

Buddhism is all over the place in what it believes - it really depends on what mood you're in. Like a lot of Christianity (and I suppose other religions) it is a supermarket where you pick and choose the bits you like.

It isn't all over the place- it is quite consistent in the main tenets.

At it's heart it is good and has much truth and very decent ethical values - the Dalai Lama is well intentioned enough, but he is ambivalent on much, often contradictory and frequently evasive. He of course only represents the Tibetan school of Buddhism, there are many others.

The Dalai Lama is in a difficult political position. Yes, he does represent the Tibetan school only.

[AeolianHarp]

We're all agreed on this - we only disagree where it comes from!

It comes from within. I am master of my own thoughts and actions.

[AeolianHarp]

He (and many others) thought he was doing the 'right' thing for the world by exterminating Jews and other 'undesirables'. From an atheistic perspective you can't argue he was 'wrong' to think that way, only that it offends your own or your society's values - if you consider that it is for the greater 'good' of the human race to eliminate certain elements then you can justify your actions. Therein lies the danger.

There is never any justification for what Hitler did, and there have been wars in the names of religions also. Any ideology/ism can lead to wars, torture, discrimination and so on. When people are ruled by ego and superiority complexes therein lies the danger. When we realise that no religion is "better" than another, that no tribe or ethnic group are "better"than another, when we can look into the eyes of someone "different" and see ourselves looking back at us, then we will progress forwards.

Not believing is not the same as being unaware.

Being "aware" of what doesn't exist? One cannot be unaware of what is not there. Nothing out in space is popping thoughts into my head like Oh I will give that change to that homeless man, oh I will help this person and so on. My actions, my thoughts, my deeds, nothing or noone else's. I take full credit for any good I do, as similarily, I take responsibility for any negative things I do. I am not a robot- nothing is controlling me!

He left his pregnant wife for another woman and yes today he would probably divorce - all very 'moral' by today's standards. I think a better word is selfish. If a person dumped an animal for another one he preferred you would presumably be horrified?

Of course dumping an animal is wrong. But Shelley and his wife were not getting along, and she had found a new man herself. Are you saying people should stay married in misery? Divorce is not wrong.

Like you also made yourself and have full control over your life? You have choices and the natural good in us is our conscience as Harvey says quoting St.Paul, 'engraved on our hearts'. Evil exists only as a perversion of what is naturally good, in other words a rebellion against the natural order.

We all have a conscience unless one is a psychopath.

Precisely - this right and wrong you talk about in atheism are variable depending on where and when you live, in other words they cannot exist of themselves. From the Christian point of view that isn't true - there is objective morality.

Morality cannot be absolute as we don't allow for circumstances- religions say stealing is a sin/wrong- and in the past children were hung for stealing food. Obviously we need to look behind the motivations for transgressions. You cannot have black and white laws- life is not that simple.

Of course love isn't exclusive to Christianity, but neither is love of animals exclusive to atheism - Christians are perfectly capable of loving animals, think of St.Francis. I have two lovely cats that I adore and I'm also loathe to kill even a fly. In fact, Buddhism is generally considered to be not atheistic but agnostic, in that, the Buddha himself did not deny the existence of God.

St Francis was very kind yes! Buddha never spoke of god.

[Peter]

You speak a lot about Buddhism so I would like to ask if you believe in reincarnation?

[AeolianHarp]

You speak a lot about Buddhism so I would like to ask if you believe in reincarnation?

Yes, I find Buddhism to be a helpful philosophy, but I wouldn't class myself solely "Buddhist". Yes, I do believe in reincarnation.

[Peter]

There is never any justification for what Hitler did, and there have been wars in the names of religions also. Any ideology/ism can lead to wars, torture, discrimination and so on. When people are ruled by ego and superiority complexes therein lies the danger.

But they did justify it didn't they? That's the point - who are you to say your 'right' is any more 'right' than anyone else's if there is no objective morality?

When we realise that no religion is "better" than another, that no tribe or ethnic group are "better"than another, when we can look into the eyes of someone "different" and see ourselves looking back at us, then we will progress forwards.

So when we realise a tribe is quite right to engage in cannibalism or that other countries are entitled to their values that disagree with ours such as North Korea or China?

Being "aware" of what doesn't exist? One cannot be unaware of what is not there. Nothing out in space is popping thoughts into my head like Oh I will give that change to that homeless man, oh I will help this person and so on. My actions, my thoughts, my deeds, nothing or noone else's. I take full credit for any good I do, as similarily, I take responsibility for any negative things I do. I am not a robot- nothing is controlling me!

Then the advertisers are wasting their money - people are brainwashed daily through technology!

St Francis was very kind yes! Buddha never spoke of god.

Not speaking of God doesn't = Atheist or else Richard Dawkins would have kept very silent about God!

[Peter]

Yes, I find Buddhism to be a helpful philosophy, but I wouldn't class myself solely "Buddhist". Yes, I do believe in reincarnation.

Interesting - so how does that happen of itself? I doubt that Richard Dawkins believes in reincarnation!

[AeolianHarp]

But they did justify it didn't they? That's the point - who are you to say your 'right' is any more 'right' than anyone else's if there is no objective morality?

We know in our hearts that murder and torture is wrong- only psycopaths seem to think it is ok.

So when we realise a tribe is quite right to engage in cannibalism or that other countries are entitled to their values that disagree with ours such as North Korea or China?

Cannibalism is much misunderstood- tribes tended to eat their dead as a way of honouring their spirits. I don't see any difference in eating dead people if people eat dead animals too- as in in people being in extreme circumstances of survival and their team/ co workers whatever have died and there are no plants and they eat the dead people to survive.

Then the advertisers are wasting their money - people are brainwashed daily through technology!

Indeed- but I am not and so are others waking up to the MSM and the NWO etc.

[AeolianHarp]

Interesting - so how does that happen of itself? I doubt that Richard Dawkins believes in reincarnation!

He probably doesn't in words- but reincarnation is in effect the continuation of life in various forms- matter has to go somewhere, it forms something else. There are a few ways of understanding reincarnation- the East has a few spiritual paths which look at it.

LOL I reckon Richard Dawkins would not agree with all the ways I see life and the universe etc.

I just got a text that the Tibetan Lama is doing a teaching tonight- I must go- not been to Lama group in ages!

[Peter]

He probably doesn't in words- but reincarnation is in effect the continuation of life in various forms- matter has to go somewhere, it forms something else. There are a few ways of understanding reincarnation- the East has a few spiritual paths which look at it.

LOL I reckon Richard Dawkins would not agree with all the ways I see life and the universe etc.

I just got a text that the Tibetan Lama is doing a teaching tonight- I must go- not been to Lama group in ages!

Years ago I used to be interested in the idea of Buddhism until I looked into it more fully and read that the Dalai Lama thought it best that people did not change religions but developed in the faith they were brought up in. Then I came up with many other problems, among them - is reincarnation related to how you lived your life, i.e karma? If so then who judges that? As you say no external force has any power over you, you will probably answer you judge yourself, so why would a bad person judge themselves rotten in order that they have to experience a terrible incarnation on earth? Most people think they are decent (though lacking humility they often fail to see the truth - even the Pope goes to confession daily!), so when they die why not just be done with it and simply extinguish yourself rather than going through the bother of another life? What if you don't want to be extinguished (Nirvana) so keep on being bad in order to get another life eternally? Or do we have no choice and some other power decides we're not quite there yet and have to come back? What if you don't agree with the decision?!

You might be interested in this book - "The story of one man's unexpected pilgrimage from Buddhism to Catholicism.There are Christians who, in mid-life decide to abandon their Christian faith and become Buddhists. Paul Williams did the opposite. After twenty years spent practising and teaching Tibetan Buddhism in Britain, scholar and broadcaster Paul Williams astonished his family and friends in 1999 by converting to Roman Catholicism."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unexpected-W.../dp/0567088308

[Rocco]

There are and have been people in this world who are illterate and live in remote tribes, never heard of Christianity, but are still capable of good, moral, loving behaviour. People can and are good, moral, lving, kind without god or knowing the bible.

True, but the point is that any good that anyone does, whether they want to admit it or not, comes from God.

[Rocco]

We know in our hearts that murder and torture is wrong- only psycopaths seem to think it is ok.

Why is that wrong? Who decided that would be wrong? You can't just say "We know in our hearts" that's not good enough. Without God, you can't tell me it would be wrong to murder someone. No, you have to look to the 10 comandments that God set up for us to live by to be able to know and say that murder is wrong.

And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Exodus 20:1-17 NIV 84

[AeolianHarp]

Years ago I used to be interested in the idea of Buddhism until I looked into it more fully and read that the Dalai Lama thought it best that people did not change religions but developed in the faith they were brought up in.

Did he? Well he is a tolerant spiritual teacher- he would not claim that one path is better than another.

Then I came up with many other problems, among them - is reincarnation related to how you lived your life, i.e karma? If so then who judges that?

Buddhism doesn't have the same concept on judgement that theisims have, so it is hard to explain from that viewpoint. On the whole karma is built up on positive or negative actions- like what seeds one sows. There are many thoughts on karma, here is one I found:

The Theory of Karma in Buddhism
by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw

Karma is the law of moral causation. The theory of Karma is a fundamental doctrine in Buddhism. This belief was prevalent in India before the advent of the Buddha. Nevertheless, it was the Buddha who explained and formulated this doctrine in the complete form in which we have it today.

What is the cause of the inequality that exists among mankind?
Why should one person be brought up in the lap of luxury, endowed with fine mental, moral and physical qualities, and another in absolute poverty, steeped in misery?
Why should one person be a mental prodigy, and another an idiot?
Why should one person be born with saintly characteristics and another with criminal tendencies?
Why should some be linguistic, artistic, mathematically inclined, or musical from the very cradle?
Why should others be congenitally blind, deaf, or deformed?|
Why should some be blessed, and others cursed from their births?

Either this inequality of mankind has a cause, or it is purely accidental. No sensible person would think of attributing this unevenness, this inequality, and this diversity to blind chance or pure accident.

According to Buddhism, this inequality is due not only to heredity, environment, "nature and nurture", but also to Karma. In other words, it is the result of our own past actions and our own present doings. We ourselves are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We create our own Heaven. We create our own Hell. We are the architects of our own fate.

Perplexed by the seemingly inexplicable, apparent disparity that existed among humanity, a young truth-seeker approached the Buddha and questioned him regarding this intricate problem of inequality:

"What is the cause, what is the reason, O Lord," questioned he, "that we find amongst mankind the short-lived and long-lived, the healthy and the diseased, the ugly and beautiful, those lacking influence and the powerful, the poor and the rich, the low-born and the high-born, and the ignorant and the wise?"

The Buddha’s reply was:

"All living beings have actions (Karma) as their own, their inheritance, their congenital cause, their kinsman, their refuge. It is Karma that differentiates beings into low and high states."

He then explained the cause of such differences in accordance with the law of cause and effect.

Certainly we are born with hereditary characteristics. At the same time we possess certain innate abilities that science cannot adequately account for. To our parents we are indebted for the gross sperm and ovum that form the nucleus of this so-called being. They remain dormant within each parent until this potential germinal compound is vitalised by the karmic energy needed for the production of the foetus. Karma is therefore the indispensable conceptive cause of this being.

The accumulated karmic tendencies, inherited in the course of previous lives, at times play a far greater role than the hereditary parental cells and genes in the formation of both physical and mental characteristics.

Dealing with this problem of variation, the Atthasalini, being a commentary on the Abhidharma, states:

"Depending on this difference in Karma appears the differences in the birth of beings, high and low, base and exalted, happy and miserable. Depending on the difference in Karma appears the difference in the individual features of beings as beautiful and ugly, high-born or low born, well-built or deformed. Depending on the difference in Karma appears the difference in worldly conditions of beings, such as gain and loss, and disgrace, blame and praise, happiness and misery."

Thus, from a Buddhist point of view, our present mental, moral intellectual and temperamental differences are, for the most part, due to our own actions and tendencies, both past and present.

Although Buddhism attributes this variation to Karma, as being the chief cause among a variety, it does not, however, assert that everything is due to Karma. The law of Karma, important as it is, is only one of the twenty-four conditions described in Buddhist Philosophy.

Refuting the erroneous view that "whatsoever fortune or misfortune experienced is all due to some previous action", the Buddha said:

"So, then, according to this view, owing to previous action men will become murderers, thieves, unchaste, liars, slanderers, covetous, malicious and perverts. Thus, for those who fall back on the former deeds as the essential reason, there is neither the desire to do, nor effort to do, nor necessity to do this deed, or abstain from this deed."

It was this important text, which states the belief that all physical circumstances and mental attitudes spring solely from past Karma that Buddha contradicted. If the present life is totally conditioned or wholly controlled by our past actions, then certainly Karma is tantamount to fatalism or determinism or predestination. If this were true, free will would be an absurdity. Life would be purely mechanistic, not much different from a machine. Being created by an Almighty God who controls our destinies and predetermines our future, or being produced by an irresistible Karma that completely determines our fate and controls our life’s course, independent of any free action on our part, is essentially the same. The only difference lies in the two words God and Karma. One could easily be substituted for the other, because the ultimate operation of both forces would be identical.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm

I cannot say I agree with it all, but a lot of it makes sense to me.

As you say no external force has any power over you, you will probably answer you judge yourself, so why would a bad person judge themselves rotten in order that they have to experience a terrible incarnation on earth? Most people think they are decent (though lacking humility they often fail to see the truth - even the Pope goes to confession daily!), so when they die why not just be done with it and simply extinguish yourself rather than going through the bother of another life?

People are encouraged in Buddhism to practise mindfulness and think upon the effects of their actions on others- by looking within and meditating the mind becomes clearer, and one is encouraged to act with altruism/compassion- we all can change and grow. It is about taking responsibility. Humility is also an important thing in Buddhism too- the ego is understood to be a factor in doing negative actions. One cannot extinguish oneself- another life will happen after the physical one.

What if you don't want to be extinguished (Nirvana) so keep on being bad in order to get another life eternally? Or do we have no choice and some other power decides we're not quite there yet and have to come back? What if you don't agree with the decision?!

Nirvana is not extinguishment- it is a state of being. It is a realisation. Life will always continue in one form or other- whether a physical realm or a non physical one. No power decides that is outside of ourselves- our state of consciousness, spiritual development etc reflects where we will be.That is the gist of it. The thing is people often think an afterlife and reincarnation are incompatible- they aren't. Time doesn't exist in the non physical realms- time is only linear in the physical- even scientists are coming to realise this. All we do determines where we will be, what we will become- we are our own creators in that sense.

You might be interested in this book - "The story of one man's unexpected pilgrimage from Buddhism to Catholicism.There are Christians who, in mid-life decide to abandon their Christian faith and become Buddhists. Paul Williams did the opposite. After twenty years spent practising and teaching Tibetan Buddhism in Britain, scholar and broadcaster Paul Williams astonished his family and friends in 1999 by converting to Roman Catholicism."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Unexpected-W.../dp/0567088308

Well it was a choice he made. People will find what path suits them. I have a friend who converted to Islam.

[AeolianHarp]

Why is that wrong? Who decided that would be wrong? You can't just say "We know in our hearts" that's not good enough. Without God, you can't tell me it would be wrong to murder someone. No, you have to look to the 10 comandments that God set up for us to live by to be able to know and say that murder is wrong.

And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Exodus 20:1-17 NIV 84

The Buddhist precepts, before the bible said pretty much the same things:


The Five Precepts:

1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech.
5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/d...pancasila.html

Moral laws existed before Christianity.

I shall put your questions to Lama tonight- he always asks us to ask him questions ( and mostly we just sit there and say nothing!)- he will be happy I asked him something.

[Rocco]

Prove to me that moral laws existed before God and the Bible.

They didn't; your "moral laws" again, whether you want to admit it or not, come from God and the Bible.