Performing Shakespeare in its original pronunciation

[Chris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQvD2Hj-Odc

Interesting, and somewhat analogous to the use of period instruments/HIP in music!

[Michael]

I am presently ploughing through the BBC DVD set of the complete Shakespeare plays and I am doing fine with the "modern" versions, thank you, mainly because the DVDs are presented with subtitles. I don't think I could cope with the "original" versions which can only be approximations. Unless somebody had an Elizabethan tape-recorder, I doubt if anybody can be entirely accurate about the pronunciation.
Slightly off-topic, but I am concentrating on the lesser-known (and lesser regarded) plays such as "Henry VIII" and "Titus Andronicus". I don't know if they are great art but I'm enjoying them. They are at least as good as "Doctor Who".
And don't get me started on the Doctor. He's great!

[Megan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQvD2Hj-Odc

Interesting, and somewhat analogous to the use of period instruments/HIP in music!

I remember at school the teacher teaching us Chaucer and reading it out in middle English. You could work out what he was saying , but obviously it sounded a bit odd to the ear. So, knight sound like kernicht.

I like to both HIP and modern instrument performances, but I prefer Shakespeare plays only in the original language. Take as an example in the following soliloquy on death. From Measure for Measure -

'Aye but to die, and go we know not where,
to lie in cold obstruction and to rot.
This sensible warm motion to become a kneaded clod,
and the delighted spirit to bathe in fiery floods,
Or to reside in thrilling regions of thick ribbed ice,
to be imprisoned in the viewless winds, and blown with restless violence round about the pendant world;
or to be worse than worst
Of those that lawless and incertain thought
Imagine howling —'tis too horrible!
The weariest and most loathed worldly life
That age, ache, penury, and imprisonment
Can lay on nature is a paradise
To what we fear of death.


Try and put that into everyday English. You just can't beat the Bard's own words.

[Chris]

I remember at school the teacher teaching us Chaucer and reading it out in middle English. You could work out what he was saying , but obviously it sounded a bit odd to the ear. So, knight sound like kernicht.

I had to memorize the entire prologue to The Canterbury Tales in the original Middle English. I think I still remember most of it, too...

[Preston]

Try and put that into everyday English. You just can't beat the Bard's own words.

I tried. I know I did not get the form of the poetry right, but I tried. I am confused on one thing- the last two phrases. Though, I thought he might be saying that. It took me quite sometime to try and translate it into modern grammar- so, please do not laugh, ! I was only trying to put it into a very simple and understanding grammar.

No, it seems you cannot beat Shakespeare's own words, by any means.

Here it is. Any advice is appreciated.

Yes, but to die, then go to a place we do not know of,
While our body lies in the ground and rots.
This all-to-often sensibly-warm thought, of the body rotting in the ground,
While the spirit burns in floods of fire,
Or, to dwell in overwhelming regions of thick and rocky ice,
While being imprisoned in the unseen winds, and blown around this overly-pious world in a sleepless violence;
Or to be worse than the worst,
Of all the terrors that exist - that is unfathomable, unimaginable, not right, and probably not true:
Because how can one be worse than the worst?
Though, the thought of being the worst is too much, imagine the howling of the pain – OH!, it is too much pain to imagine, too horrible to think of!
The worldly life is hard and weary and disgusting,
We age, ache, live in utter poverty, are imprisoned, etc.
Yet, for those who do not see, nature is a paradise,
When compared with their death.

[Megan]

I tried. I know I did not get the form of the poetry right, but I tried. I am confused on one thing- the last two phrases. Though, I thought he might be saying that. It took me quite sometime to try and translate it into modern grammar- so, please do not laugh, ! I was only trying to put it into a very simple and understanding grammar.

No, it seems you cannot beat Shakespeare's own words, by any means.

Here it is. Any advice is appreciated.

Yes, but to die, then go to a place we do not know of,
While our body lies in the ground and rots.
This all-to-often sensibly-warm thought, of the body rotting in the ground,
While the spirit burns in floods of fire,
Or, to dwell in overwhelming regions of thick and rocky ice,
While being imprisoned in the unseen winds, and blown around this overly-pious world in a sleepless vi

olence;
Or to be worse than the worst,
Of all the terrors that exist - that is unfathomable, unimaginable, not right, and probably not true:
Because how can one be worse than the worst?
Though, the thought of being the worst is too much, imagine the howling of the pain – OH!, it is too much pain to imagine, too horrible to think of!
The worldly life is hard and weary and disgusting,
We age, ache, live in utter poverty, are imprisoned, etc.
Yet, for those who do not see, nature is a paradise,
When compared with their death.

That's very good Preston.
I suppose one of the points about this is to try and get at the language and understand it, you have to kind of know the philosophy. And if we are talking about that passage, then we would have to say ,I think, that it is very much informed by Catholic Christianity. What I can't quite work out is, whether it is a description of purgatory, or the infernal regions.
I think you have got the sense of it, definately.
Some folks are put off reading Shakespeare thinking that they can't understand the language, but you have proven that is not so difficult . I enjoy reading Shakespeare because of the beauty of the poetry, and if I get stuck, I refer to the notes.
An interesting question about the philosophy, is that Shakespeare talks about what happens to the soul after death, but does our modern world believe that they have a soul ?

[Preston]

Megan, your post makes me feel good. Thank you for your kind words, truly. I was worried I had interpreted the original writings in a way that only made sense to me. Though, I am glad to see different. There are still things about it I do not wholly understand and I need to study it more.

It seems to me, that it is definitely more about “infernal regions” (as it certainly describes unimaginable suffering and terrible desolate environments) than purgatory. And, think of the first question, “but to die”? Though, I think that both can be imagined from reading it, because while it talks of death and suffering, naturally one's mind is going to think of the opposite- a more heavenly environment, which I think Shakespeare is trying to end with using the last two lines. Though, those last two confuse me.

The original certainly questions death, the fear of death, and what it may be like. What I find most interesting is when Shakespeare speaks of “worse than the worst” and basically says, what a “lawless and incertain thought.”

As for the modern world, I believe it really depends on the individual's beliefs. Though, personally, I do not think the soul has ever really been thought of enough by humanity as a whole, just certain sects, groups, people, etc. A lot of people are so sure they are right, and if another told them that the great genius Shakespeare believed in an afterlife, it would probably not matter to them- I find that pretty ridiculous.

[Quijote]

[...] As for the modern world, I believe it really depends on the individual's beliefs. Though, personally, I do not think the soul has ever really been thought of enough by humanity as a whole, just certain sects, groups, people, etc. A lot of people are so sure they are right, and if another told them that the great genius Shakespeare believed in an afterlife, it would probably not matter to them- I find that pretty ridiculous.

As an atheist, I have to say that it is of no concern to me whatsoever that WS (or any other historical figure, LvB included) believed in an afterlife, and this is hardly an argument to convince me otherwise. However, I am not totally nihilistic either, as when I finally "shuffle off this mortal coil" I can take comfort in the fact that my genetic contribution will continue. Not only that, the atoms or elements that constitute my body will be recycled. An afterlife of sorts, then.

[Preston]

As an atheist, I have to say that it is of no concern to me whatsoever that WS (or any other historical figure, LvB included) believed in an afterlife, and this is hardly an argument to convince me otherwise. However, I am not totally nihilistic either, as when I finally "shuffle off this mortal coil" I can take comfort in the fact that my genetic contribution will continue. Not only that, the atoms or elements that constitute my body will be recycled. An afterlife of sorts, then.

I do not believe in a particular religious deity (at least of the religions I know of), either, so we have that in common.

Have you read about agnosticism? There are different forms of it, and sense you do refer to an afterlife and say you are not wholly nihilistic- then you might like it.

[Preston]

Also, as for Beethoven and Shakespeare, etc., for me, when human-beings of such genius as they speak of an afterlife it should make people who are very interested in learning such things, think and study on such issues to a greater degree. Because, imo, genius of that level is usually very philosophical, understood, etc. We all have our different beliefs, always have and always will. Though, should we just completely rule out the beliefs of the greatest minds of all time for our own beliefs? Should we not try to study and learn from them? Etc.

[Quijote]

What about evil genius?

[Quijote]

But don't take me as an example, please, I implore you.

[Sorrano]

But don't take me as an example, please, I implore you.

Hey, if the shoe fits.....

[Preston]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQvD2Hj-Odc

Interesting, and somewhat analogous to the use of period instruments/HIP in music!

Chris, if you are going to post Shakespeare in its original pronunciation please do so properly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdTnlnJjSqE

LOL!

[Peter]

As an atheist, I have to say that it is of no concern to me whatsoever that WS (or any other historical figure, LvB included) believed in an afterlife, and this is hardly an argument to convince me otherwise. However, I am not totally nihilistic either, as when I finally "shuffle off this mortal coil" I can take comfort in the fact that my genetic contribution will continue. Not only that, the atoms or elements that constitute my body will be recycled. An afterlife of sorts, then.

But it should be of interest - that is a very arrogant argument to say that because you believe in nothing, others beliefs and the effect it had on their work is of no interest. What you or I do or don't believe is of no interest, but when it has a direct effect on a creative genius such as Michelangelo or Bach then it is highly relevant.