Beethoven's daughter?

[Peter]

Look, let me be clear Peter : whilst I admire your objective forensic approach (there is no firm evidence, I agree), I do detect a certain odeur of moral objection. This will not do, and has no place on an objective "Reference Forum", if such be the name of this Internet website.

I didn't pass judgement one way or the other and I would be the last to think Beethoven was a saint, I merely introduced the point as the only piece of 'evidence' in the theory that Minona was his daughter. Far from a 'moral objection' on my part, I detect a hysterical reaction on yours aided possibly by some Bordeaux which tends to result on these occasions with you posting numerous threads when one would suffice!

[Michael]

Only because I've already done so (elsewhere). The harmonic analysis, not the "revelation" part. The revelation I leave to you.
At your pleasure ...

I just dragged in the Grosse Fuge as an aside. The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't be too aghast at the discovery that Beethoven was no saint. Because of his tendency to take the high moral ground in many of his pronouncements, he may not entirely be guiltless of hypocrisy. He continually preached brotherly love but hardly extended it to his siblings. His biographer, Thayer, was so shocked at some of the financial chicanery of his idol that he never truly recovered from it and was unable to complete his work. All in all, B was a good enough man - not perfect , but then who is?

[Quijote]

Only because I've already done so (elsewhere). The harmonic analysis, not the "revelation" part. The revelation I leave to you.
At your pleasure ...

[Quijote]

I was being overly Germanic. Opus 133 is generally referred to as the "Grosse Fuge". The english translation is the "Great Fugue".
You are always looking out for tiny mistakes and, in this case, missing the sheer brilliant intellectual force of my argument (which I've forgotten, by the way).

De music!

Quite right, my apologies. The music then. Reveal it to me, if you'd be so kind (apart from an extended harmonic analysis which would bore me rigid, believe it or not).

[Michael]

Well put, except for the "Fuge". You mean "fudge" (a sort of caramel or toffee) or "fugue" (a contrapuntal approach to musical structure), though in the wrong hands the two terms become synonomous. I couldn't care less, either. Are we arguing or agreeing? Tone, or "register" is everything, both in music and (hexadecimal) writing.

I was being overly Germanic. Opus 133 is generally referred to as the "Grosse Fuge". The english translation is the "Great Fugue".
You are always looking out for tiny mistakes and, in this case, missing the sheer brilliant intellectual force of my argument (which I've forgotten, by the way).

De music!

[Quijote]

As you seem to be talking to yourself, Philip, I may as well chip in. I never knee-jerk with anyone (not even Beethoven - unless I'm listening to the Grosse Fuge). We are all capable of falling short of our ideals (even moi) and B was a little more idealistic than most. He did talk a lot of bull's excrement in his lifetime, and he did set himself impossible goals. He was certainly no saint and no doubt he did make a mess of many things. Except the music.
Personally, I couldn't care less who the Immortal Beloved was, or if he invaded "fortresses".
The music!

Well put, except for the "Fuge". You mean "fudge" (a sort of caramel or toffee) or "fugue" (a contrapuntal approach to musical structure), though in the wrong hands the two terms become synonomous. I couldn't care less, either. Are we arguing or agreeing? Tone, or "register" is everything, both in music and (hexadecimal) writing.

[Michael]

As you seem to be talking to yourself, Philip, I may as well chip in. I never knee-jerk with anyone (not even Beethoven - unless I'm listening to the Grosse Fuge). We are all capable of falling short of our ideals (even moi) and B was a little more idealistic than most. He did talk a lot of bull's excrement in his lifetime, and he did set himself impossible goals. He was certainly no saint and no doubt he did make a mess of many things. Except the music.
Personally, I couldn't care less who the Immortal Beloved was, or if he invaded "fortresses".
The music!

[Quijote]

I ask a direct question to all forum members : as far as can be gleaned from the - somewhat - iconic literature, did Beethoven frequent prostitutes or not?

[Quijote]

Look, let me be clear Peter : whilst I admire your objective forensic approach (there is no firm evidence, I agree), I do detect a certain odeur of moral objection. This will not do, and has no place on an objective "Reference Forum", if such be the name of this Internet website.

[Quijote]

Double-think, à la Orwell? I really couldn't care less. What I might object to (if I could get off this sofa) is knee-jerk defense of a cultural icon.

[Quijote]

Only one problem, unless of course Beethoven was a complete hypocrite - "It is one of my foremost principles never to occupy any other relations than those of friendship with the wife of another man. I should never want to fill my heart with distrust towards those who may chance some day to share my fate with me, and thus destroy the loveliest and purest life for myself."

And of course, as if it needs to be said, Beethoven was not capable of being a hypocrite. Right?

[Peter]

Only one problem, unless of course Beethoven was a complete hypocrite - "It is one of my foremost principles never to occupy any other relations than those of friendship with the wife of another man. I should never want to fill my heart with distrust towards those who may chance some day to share my fate with me, and thus destroy the loveliest and purest life for myself."

[Michael]

With all due respect to the composer, I pity the poor girl if she looked like him.

[Phil Leeds]

Thanks for the replies. The more I have read about her, the more I think it is quite likely that she was B's daughter - e.g. looks, she was a fairly gifted musician and was mysterious about her origins.
[Sorry I seem to have put this thread in the wrong place by the way, iis there a way of moving it, perhaps a mod can do it?]

[Megan]

It is not impossible, and the surviving photographs showing this lady in old age do have a striking resemblance with Beethoven's portraits.

I agree,it is not impossible. A few years ago, a member of this forum also noted that her name spelt backwards is anonim , as in anonimous.