Beethoven's daughter?

[Michael]

Only because I've already done so (elsewhere). The harmonic analysis, not the "revelation" part. The revelation I leave to you.
At your pleasure ...

I just dragged in the Grosse Fuge as an aside. The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't be too aghast at the discovery that Beethoven was no saint. Because of his tendency to take the high moral ground in many of his pronouncements, he may not entirely be guiltless of hypocrisy. He continually preached brotherly love but hardly extended it to his siblings. His biographer, Thayer, was so shocked at some of the financial chicanery of his idol that he never truly recovered from it and was unable to complete his work. All in all, B was a good enough man - not perfect , but then who is?

[Peter]

Look, let me be clear Peter : whilst I admire your objective forensic approach (there is no firm evidence, I agree), I do detect a certain odeur of moral objection. This will not do, and has no place on an objective "Reference Forum", if such be the name of this Internet website.

I didn't pass judgement one way or the other and I would be the last to think Beethoven was a saint, I merely introduced the point as the only piece of 'evidence' in the theory that Minona was his daughter. Far from a 'moral objection' on my part, I detect a hysterical reaction on yours aided possibly by some Bordeaux which tends to result on these occasions with you posting numerous threads when one would suffice!

[Michael]

I ask a direct question to all forum members : as far as can be gleaned from the - somewhat - iconic literature, did Beethoven frequent prostitutes or not?

I suspect he did although - and I could be wrong here - there doesn't seem to be any historical evidence (and why should there be?) He did warn his nephew against them, however, but that was just common sense as venereal disease was rife in Vienna.

[Preston]

I suspect he did although - and I could be wrong here - there doesn't seem to be any historical evidence (and why should there be?) He did warn his nephew against them, however, but that was just common sense as venereal disease was rife in Vienna.

Yes, in reading Thayer's biography- I came across one part that mentioned about how during a brief period in Beethoven's life, he lived above a brothel.

I, imagine that it bothered him because of his moral values. Though, Beethoven is an extremely hard person to understand- primarily due to his eccentricity.

I, imagine that with Beethoven and prostitutes- I, imagine that he hated them and found them disgusting. Though, lust is a powerful sin and passion- and can all too easily take the heart of a person and twist it all around.

So, in Beethoven's case, it- may- have been more like:

F'em then beat them- so to say. Please excuse the language.

I do believe that Beethoven was a man of deep spirituality and deep moral values. It is that his eccentricity got the best of him at times.

[Preston]

I know it is all a bit pointless speculating, but what are people's views on whether Minona was Beethoven's illegitimate daughter?

It would be most interesting to see some DNA tests done on Minona.

[Preston]

His biographer, Thayer, was so shocked at some of the financial chicanery of his idol that he never truly recovered from it and was unable to complete his work.

Interesting.

Though, when a man is slightly crazed (if you will), and doesn't have "enough" money- people go to extremes to get it.

Also, I have read that Beethoven started talking about ideas that relate more to Socialism, and therefore, was probably not to happy with all the greed that surrounded him- publisher, copyists, musicians, etc.- when it was his and only his work- and knowing him, wanted to do what he could about it, probably to prove a point.

[Megan]

Minona Stackelberg as an elderly lady.





Johann Beethoven.




You could almost imagine if Minona broke out into a smile, she would look very much like Johann

Just saying.

[Michael]

If she had a wonky right eye, it would be a dead cert.

I wouldn't call that leer a smile .


(I'm being very critical about personal appearances, I'm afraid. That's because I am so devilishly handsome. .The icon will give you some idea.)

[Phil Leeds]

Thanks again for the responses (although I did wonder about half way through where it was going ).
I agree with Preston that it would be interesting if some DNA tests done on the remains of Minona - is this likely/possible though I wonder.
Thanks for the photo Megan, there is a portrait of her when she was a young woman and the similarity to B is striking

[Quijote]

I just dragged in the Grosse Fuge as an aside. The point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't be too aghast at the discovery that Beethoven was no saint. Because of his tendency to take the high moral ground in many of his pronouncements, he may not entirely be guiltless of hypocrisy. He continually preached brotherly love but hardly extended it to his siblings. His biographer, Thayer, was so shocked at some of the financial chicanery of his idol that he never truly recovered from it and was unable to complete his work. All in all, B was a good enough man - not perfect , but then who is?

I just wanted to highlight this quote. Because I agree.

[Quijote]

[...]Far from a 'moral objection' on my part, I detect a hysterical reaction on yours aided possibly by some Bordeaux which tends to result on these occasions with you posting numerous threads when one would suffice!

Hmm. Every time I disagree you with you, you invoke terms such as "hysteria" and "Bordeaux". If I were a lawyer I might detect grounds for slander. Never mind, it is all water off a duck's back. And I detest lawyers (not to mention priests, accountants, politicians ...).

[Quijote]

If she had a wonky right eye, it would be a dead cert.

I wouldn't call that leer a smile .


(I'm being very critical about personal appearances, I'm afraid. That's because I am so devilishly handsome. .The icon will give you some idea.)

Hello handsome. That leer is not a smile, as you say. Maybe it was just a bad painter?

[Quijote]

Thanks again for the responses (although I did wonder about half way through where it was going ).
I agree with Preston that it would be interesting if some DNA tests done on the remains of Minona - is this likely/possible though I wonder.
Thanks for the photo Megan, there is a portrait of her when she was a young woman and the similarity to B is striking

And so, Phil Leeds, we reach the dénoument of your thread : the only way to prove the posit is to dig up LvB (or his brothers? Where are they buried, by the way?) and run DNA checks. Why not (no question mark).

[Preston]

And so, Phil Leeds, we reach the dénoument of your thread : the only way to prove the posit is to dig up LvB (or his brothers? Where are they buried, by the way?) and run DNA checks. Why not (no question mark).

I imagine somewhere out there, that Beethoven's DNA, extracted from his hair, is on record. It would seem that finding the grave of Minona and taking a DNA sample of her remains would be a good idea.

[Phil Leeds]

And so, Phil Leeds, we reach the dénoument of your thread : the only way to prove the posit is to dig up LvB (or his brothers? Where are they buried, by the way?) and run DNA checks. Why not (no question mark).

As Preston says, there must be plenty of DNA about for Beethoven, with all the hair that was lopped of him. As for exhuming Minona, I am not sure as to the rules/laws on this, presumably it has to be for very good reasons and would our curioristy be good enough? I believe there are no living relatives of Minona to ask/test for DNA.