Beethoven and punk rock

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by ann hathaway:

O Freunde, nicht diese Tone!!

Ja wohl, Madame!

My late contribution: Sure, Beethoven was a radical, and in this he may have had some connection with rockers, even punk rockers. The difference? LvB had substance, not just style.

[zenmaster126]

urm i myself am into rock music, and i have to say Beethoven was the origional rocker, he had the emotion and the dynamic, as well as bending the rules, and maybe the Sex Pistols are emotion over talent but you are all being rather snobish

[Rod]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
urm i myself am into rock music, and i have to say Beethoven was the origional rocker, he had the emotion and the dynamic, as well as bending the rules, and maybe the Sex Pistols are emotion over talent but you are all being rather snobish

I'm no snob! I've got ALL of AC/DCs albums and a few of Black Sabbath's as well!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[zenmaster126]

ok maybe not you then , although i wouldnt realy compair Beethoven to AC/DC or Black Sabbath, more The Smashing Pumpkins (if anyone here has heard Mellon Collie or Si Dream you know what im talkin about) or maybe Jeff Buckley and quite possibaly Radio Head, because they are all extremely talented musicians and composers as well as the fact they redifine music in some way.

[zenmaster126]

what does everyone else think ?

[spaceray]

I must admit I know next to nothing about rock music now.I saw a lot of bands in Toronto in the sixties when I was a kid ,The Rolling Stones,The Beatles, The Who, Jimi Hendrix,and even Frank Zappa .It just didn't do anything for me I always thought all that prancing on stage was mere self indulgence.I was born a Classical music snob.I liked jazz.
My girlfriend and I laughed the other day when we taled about the kind of music we would be playing in the old folks home,she said we should learn some Bach pieces for our sing alongs .Forget Bach ,we'll need to learn some Bruce Springsteen!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
what does everyone else think ?

I think rock is more spectacle than substance. Some of the 19th Century performers precurse the rock events of our time (such as Liszt and Pagannini).

[Peter]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
what does everyone else think ?

I think it's great that you have such varied tastes and can appreciate Beethoven as well as rock! I don't think not liking rock makes you a snob - I like some Jazz, and if you've read many of the posts here you'll realise that even classical fans disagree about different composers - it is not a matter of snobbery, but personal taste.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
what does everyone else think ?

Well, I do so hate to be called a snob because of the type of music I prefer, and like many others here I have (more than) sampled nearly every style of music before settling down with classical. I can agree with the previous statements about snobbish classical music people though, because I tried several forums before finding this one, and by and large people there were so totally intolerant of anyone who not just disagreed with them, but god forbid, actually didn't KNOW something that should be "general knowledge". Everyone has to learn sometime, but I saw earnest novices absolutely vilified in news groups because they made a mistake of fact in print, which if that isn't snobbishness, what is? As for the original thread, well, it can't be taken literally, can it? I find myself in the position here of agreeing quite totally with Rod's points, and also to say that it isn't just "punk rock" is it? It's any form of music which introduces substantially new ideas. I'm sure that within any historical context when there is/was an upheaval in the status quo, that past "upheavers" (sorry about the neologism) were similarly compared to current ones. No shame there. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Best Regards, Gurn

[zenmaster126]

i only suggested you were being snobish because the feeling i got was a total dissisal of Beethoven influence on modern music, or maybe even a total dismisal of modern music alltogether urm conserning the comments made about modern music lacking substance, yes alot of it does, but you can hardly call a Jeff Buckley, Radio Head or even Smashing pumpkins CD/Gig pure exobitionism, and you have to remember that classical piano sonatas ect arent exactly in vogue at the moment so most genuine artis producing valid works arent going to produce a work to simmilar to Bach or Beethoven.

[Suzie]

Trying to wind me up even more, my colleagues proceeded to change the music to pop dirge. I was outnumbered, so I just kept a dignified silence. And went with the fun?
Lamentable isn't it!!

Yes it is lamentable. Insulting the Master is totally uncalled for. My office is currently in a struggle for control of the radio from one rigid and uncooperative employee. Can't we all just be civilized and share?

[spaceray]

My music dictionary defines punk rock as"An aggressive,deliberately offensive style of rock music(and fashion)emerging from the late 1970's"
I don't believe that Beethoven set out to "deliberately offend"

[spaceray]

Originally posted by zenmaster126:
...and you have to remember that classical piano sonatas ect arent exactly in vogue at the moment so most genuine artis producing valid works arent going to produce a work to simmilar to Bach or Beethoven.

I have to disagree with this ,just in my small city there were about 15 Classical music events (a broad range from Handel to Harry Sommers) just this last week.And I venture to say that were just as many rock performances.Rod is right ,one can not compare apple and oranges!
One man's meat is another man's poison.

[John Rasmussen]

Let's keep our perspective. Not only were many classical "stars" as famous as rock stars today, but some of the classical ones lived like rock stars! Check out bios for Liszt, Berlioz, or Wagner if you don't believe me. And Beethoven was as vilified by the "classical" musicians of his day as Johnny Rotten et al have been in ours.

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited February 09, 2003).]

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Let's keep our perspective. Not only were many classical "stars" as famous as rock stars today, but some of the classical ones lived like rock stars! Check out bios for Liszt, Berlioz, or Wagner if you don't believe me. And Beethoven was as vilified by the "classical" musicians of his day as Johnny Rotten et al have been in ours.

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited February 09, 2003).]

I see merit in a lot of 'modern' music (modern meaning post-1950s) and rock music. I enjoy a lot of 'classic' rock like Doors, Led Zeplin, etc, much of which has musical merit. But I draw a line when it comes to comparing Beethoven to punk rock.
First of foremost, it is like comparing apples to oranges. The two styles are so different that they are beyond comparison - not only the style of music, but its purpose, the culture surrounding it, etc.
Beethoven was vilified in his day. So was John Lydon. Yeah, OK, so what? Are you suggesting that this similarity means they are alike? Are you suggesting there is a similarity that goes deeper than that?
They were both vilified, but for very different reasons, in very different situations, by very different people in very different times and in a very different context. So what's your point? I suspect you are the sort of person who thinks it is clever to compare the "poetry" of Eminem with that of Byron or Keats.
My point is that Beethoven's music (or the music of the other great composers) reveals a genius, a skill in arranging musical sounds that is so complex, intricate, enjoyable and skilful that the vast majority of the human race cannot come anywhere near writing anything like him. It is the flukey sort of genius that Einstein had when he discovered the theory of relativity. And great classical music has a power to move people deeply, in a way that few other things can (with the exception of religion, love, and other very powerful human experiences), in a way that can literally transform and enrich someone's life. After a few beers in the pub a Sex Pistols song might sound like a bit of fun (and in that setting I certainly wouldn't act snobbish and pretensiously start waffling on about classical music, I would get with the spirit and enjoy it) - but it operates on another level. It's like comparing a comedy skit on TV to a piece of great theater that brings you to tears, or has you on the edge of your seat in excitment. There is nothing wrong with comedy skits, but it is dumb to compare them to a great performance of Hamlet, because they two are so different. Or - to use a more earthly example - it is like comparing the enjoyment of snacking on a chocolate to making love with the love of your life on a deserted beach at sunset on a tropical island! One is a bit of fun while it lasts, the other is a great moment in your life, something that touches you to the core and transforms you.
Whoever has felt the spirit of classical music, whoever has felt its power, is never the same again.
Punk rock and pop music doesn't have that power, and the producers of that sort of music do not have the sort of extraordinary, rare genius that great men like Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and Wagner possesed.



[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited February 10, 2003).]