Handel vs Bach cont.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm sure Princess Anne would not have been taught singing! I think it was harpsichord lessons in this case. Handel developed a number of singers talents, that is true.

"Another judicious subject of his enmity was her supporting Handel,a German musician and composer(who had been her singing master,and was now undertaker of one of the operas)."
From Lord Hervey's "Memoirs"
This in regard to relations between the Princess Royal and her brother Prince Frederic ,The former supporting Handel and the latter supporting the Nobility Opera.
All this from "Handel" by C Hogwood

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
"Another judicious subject of his enmity was her supporting Handel,a German musician and composer(who had been her singing master,and was now undertaker of one of the operas)."
From Lord Hervey's "Memoirs"
This in regard to relations between the Princess Royal and her brother Prince Frederic ,The former supporting Handel and the latter supporting the Nobility Opera.
All this from "Handel" by C Hogwood

Fair enough, if I'd looked at my own books I probably would have given you a better answer. What threw me is I'm sure he wrote keyboard excercises for her as well, and you saying she was his only student. I'm sure Handel coached more than just the Princess in the art of singing, but I suppose they could be construed as 'staff' rather than 'students'. I'll check my own sources tonight on the matter.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 06, 2003).]

[spaceray]

How is it that you were originally convinced that Handel couldn't have been her singing master,was it still considered impolite for high born ladies to sing.

Why was Handel so stubborn about writing English Operas was the poetry of the day really so bad that he couldn't find a" book " that he liked well enough to set?
He did not have a great grasp of English himself,was this the deterent?

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
How is it that you were originally convinced that Handel couldn't have been her singing master,was it still considered impolite for high born ladies to sing.

This was my erroneous assumption!

Originally posted by spaceray:

Why was Handel so stubborn about writing English Operas was the poetry of the day really so bad that he couldn't find a" book " that he liked well enough to set?
He did not have a great grasp of English himself,was this the deterent?

An oft asked question. I guess that his star (foreign) singers would be much less effective singing in English. Sometimes their accents were mocked when they sung in English.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

For the record I confirm Handel taught the Princess singing AND harpsichord.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Why was it so difficult for Handel to find good English singers,England and great Britain had a longstanding tradition of singing ,there were hundreds of chorus's and catch clubs?

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Why was it so difficult for Handel to find good English singers,England and great Britain had a longstanding tradition of singing ,there were hundreds of chorus's and catch clubs?

Well he managed to find English singers but they weren't the prima donna stars from the continent who could be attractions in themselves (like the '3 Tenors'!). I personally can speak of the problems of foreigners singing in English - I have a recording of the Handel oratorio 'Belshazar' where all the soloists are German apart from one Scot and when I first played it I was a little dissappointed because I thought they were singing a German language rendition because I couldn't understand a word of it. It was only by the end of the first act that I realised they were singing in (a bastardised form of) English!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 10, 2003).]

[lysander]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Why was it so difficult for Handel to find good English singers,England and great Britain had a longstanding tradition of singing ,there were hundreds of chorus's and catch clubs?

During Handel's period, I think I am correct in saying that in Great Britian we had a Court and Choral tradition, but we did not have an Operatic tradition.
Bearing in mind that Italy was the centre of the Operatic Musical, and Handel was obliged to import his 'castrati'.
The only operatic composer we had was Purcell, about 40 years before Handel.

A surprisingly large part of some Handel Operas is not original music. Audiences of Handel's day were prepared to accept his appropriations of other composers' works.
This always has been a touchy sucjet in Handel biography. To put it bluntly, was a plagiarist, and was known as such in his own day.
I have seen some of Handel's operas and love them.. 'Julius Caesar' is my favourite,
I also love, 'Xerxes', and we shall be going to see, 'Alcina' in april at the English National Opera.

My apologies in advance incase some of my facts about Handel seem sketchy.
As always, I am willing to learn.

I am really please I found this site, I treat it like a college of learning. I ask a question, and like everyone, get feedback.
Everyone has something of great interest to contribute.

Lysander.

[Rod]

Originally posted by lysander:


This always has been a touchy sucjet in Handel biography. To put it bluntly, was a plagiarist, and was known as such in his own day.

Most of Handel's 'borrowings' were from his own output. With regard to his borrowing of anyone elses music I always ask the accuser to listen to the 'source' and then listen to Handel's version. Nobody at that time wrote like Handel, regardless of where he got his material, which is why Beethoven rated him the greatest composer. Of course the research never delves into where the alleged sources (often very obsure composers) of the material got the idea from themselves, perhaps they were plagiarists too? Every composer borrowed thematic material, even Bach, even Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 10, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Most of Handel's 'borrowings' were from his own output. With regard to his borrowing of anyone elses music I always ask the accuser to listen to the 'source' and then listen to Handel's version. Nobody at that time wrote like Handel, regardless of where he got his material, which is why Beethoven rated him the greatest composer. Of course the research never delves into where the alleged sources (often very obsure composers) of the material got the idea from themselves, perhaps they were plagiarists too? Every composer borrowed thematic material, even Bach, even Beethoven.

We certainly get touchy about these things today. However, in the historical context it was not a big deal; in fact often unknown composers, in their own time, often attached someone else's name (someone famous) to their work just to get it published. If we look at this in its own context we can appreciate much better how one composer improved on someone else's ideas.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

We certainly get touchy about these things today. However, in the historical context it was not a big deal; in fact often unknown composers, in their own time, often attached someone else's name (someone famous) to their work just to get it published. If we look at this in its own context we can appreciate much better how one composer improved on someone else's ideas.

In some compilations of Handel's chamber music there certainly contained works by other composers inserted by the publishers. I have a disk of the 'Complete Handel Violin Sonatas' that contains 4 sonatas not by Handel at all. So this is a fraud that is continued by publishers to this day! May I add in every case the imposter pieces are quite forgetable despite the CD liner notes statements to the contrary.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin