Beethoven's poverty

[spaceray]

Was Beethoven impoverished all his life,some writers suggest that he had no money and lived in squalor others say he preferred squalor and stashed 4000 florins away for nephew Karl.Some feel he was a poor businessman and others suggest he was shrewd?

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Was Beethoven impoverished all his life,some writers suggest that he had no money and lived in squalor others say he preferred squalor and stashed 4000 florins away for nephew Karl.Some feel he was a poor businessman and others suggest he was shrewd?

I guess this highlights the difference between 'poverty' and 'squalor'. As near as I can determine, B was not impoverished, although sometimes it was a near thing perhaps. I think that the statement that he preferred squalor is perhaps a bit more close to the truth. It may have had to do with wanting to be left alone and not prioritizing like 'regular folks'. I also understand that the shrewd businessman is also close to the truth, one of the few lessons that Haydn apparently got over to him during their time together was how to sell his works to maximize profit, they were both what we would call 'shady' at it today. I actually learned more about this practice in a book on Haydn, but it mentioned that as good as Haydn was at it, Beethoven was even better, so I assume he was a pretty good businessman.
Regards, Gurn

[Joy]

I think he was pretty shrewed with his money as well. Counting his pennies when he would send his housekeeper out to do the grocery shopping.

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Was Beethoven impoverished all his life,some writers suggest that he had no money and lived in squalor others say he preferred squalor and stashed 4000 florins away for nephew Karl.Some feel he was a poor businessman and others suggest he was shrewd?

No I would say Beethoven was fairly comfortably off and would have been more so perhaps if he hadn't continually changed lodgings and become embroilled in needless lawsuits! Check out this page on the site for more info on this
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/miscellaneous.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Joy:
I think he was pretty shrewed with his money as well. Counting his pennies when he would send his housekeeper out to do the grocery shopping.

Joy

I think that composers played shady with publishers, but felt justified because publishers played shady with them. There was no copyright during Beethoven's time and many of his works were pirated and published without his permission or profit.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I think that composers played shady with publishers, but felt justified because publishers played shady with them. There was no copyright during Beethoven's time and many of his works were pirated and published without his permission or profit.

That's right about there being no copyright laws back then. I heard on the radio that Telemann was one of the first to come up with he idea of starting copyright laws. I know he was before Beethoven (1760's) but it took a long time for the copyright laws to come into affect. Even back then there was red tape and the legal system was slow.

Joy



[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 27, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
No I would say Beethoven was fairly comfortably off and would have been more so perhaps if he hadn't continually changed lodgings and become embroilled in needless lawsuits! Check out this page on the site for more info on this
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/miscellaneous.html

So true. The lawsuits alone could put you in the poverity level. Interesting page!

Joy

[spaceray]

But how did the patronage work in LvB's era,was it something freely offered or was it applied for?Was he expected to produce writen music or perform concerts in return?

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
But how did the patronage work in LvB's era,was it something freely offered or was it applied for?Was he expected to produce writen music or perform concerts in return?

In the case of this annuity grant the only requirement was that he stayed in Vienna. Beethoven's patrons were music lovers who were all too pleased to have such a genius as Beethoven in their midst - he certainly did not have to do any applying, but it was a question of who you knew. Beethoven arrived in Vienna with the backing of Count Waldstein and the prestige of Haydn - he was soon on friendly terms with the Lichnowsky family and Baron Von Swieten - the doors were opened for him, especially as a virtuoso pianist offering lessons to aristocratic young ladies - Because of these connections,introductions, his extremely confident forceful personality and his virtuoso gifts as a pianist, he succeeded where the shy Schubert unfortunatley did not.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited January 27, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


but it was a question of who you knew.

Not much has changed in that sense since then, has it!!

Joy

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Not much has changed in that sense since then, has it!!

Joy

It must be noted that Beethoven earned these 'good connections' though his character and unatural ability. I bet If he'd been a duffer he would have spent the rest of his days in Bonn!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I think that composers played shady with publishers, but felt justified because publishers played shady with them. There was no copyright during Beethoven's time and many of his works were pirated and published without his permission or profit.

In terms of the publishers you could replace the word shady with shoddy. From Beethoven's quotes it appears that the publishers often did poor work in reproducing the music accurately.

[spaceray]

Just how easy was it to get a perfect autograph of what ever composition from Beethoven.He must have been a very difficult client for a copyist.

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Just how easy was it to get a perfect autograph of what ever composition from Beethoven.He must have been a very difficult client for a copyist.

Dechipering his intentions must have been a nightmare and I think the musical world owes a debt of gratitude to Wenzel Schlemmer (and his assistants who did the hard graft)- he was doing work for Beethoven from at least 1799 up until his death in 1823, when the work was continued by Wenzel Rampl and a few other unfortunates!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

After seeing some of his works in person it's beyond me how anyone even a great copyist could ever decipher his works. A difficult task indeed! Bravo for them!!

Joy