Time travel

[Chaszz]

A question suggested by the deafness topic, but a little different: what would Beethoven's music have been like if, deaf or not, he had lived in a different era? I grant that (as I think it was Peter who said in the old thread on classical vs. romantic) Beethoven was formally and music-historically a classical composer. Yet I still think his wider emotional/musical temperament was significantly influenced by romanticism, in full flower in European literature by 1800-1805. Would his titanic musical personality have been able to squeeze itself into the relative strightjackets of the baroque or early classical styles? Or would he have exploded those in Beethoven-like ways also? Could this have happened without some romantic influence on him? Without such influence, and without the gathering impulses toward freedom and revolution in the early 19th C., would Beethoven himself been somewhat more sedate and conventionally respectable?

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Would his titanic musical personality have been able to squeeze itself into the relative strightjackets of the baroque or early classical styles?

I'm trying to imagine Beethoven born 50 or 75 years before he was,oh my goodness what a different kettle of fish baroque music would have been.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Would his titanic musical personality have been able to squeeze itself into the relative strightjackets of the baroque or early classical styles? Or would he have exploded those in Beethoven-like ways also? Could this have happened without some romantic influence on him? Without such influence, and without the gathering impulses toward freedom and revolution in the early 19th C., would Beethoven himself been somewhat more sedate and conventionally respectable?

You come up with some really good ones Chaszz! I can't see Beethoven ever being sedate or even conventional for that matter. I think his explosive music and personality would not have changed. He would have still been as dynamic and powerful as he always was and he also broke a few rules along the way, I don't think living in the 'free romantic' era would have made him any more
revolutionary or free.
Joy

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
A question suggested by the deafness topic, but a little different: what would Beethoven's music have been like if, deaf or not, he had lived in a different era? I grant that (as I think it was Peter who said in the old thread on classical vs. romantic) Beethoven was formally and music-historically a classical composer. Yet I still think his wider emotional/musical temperament was significantly influenced by romanticism, in full flower in European literature by 1800-1805. Would his titanic musical personality have been able to squeeze itself into the relative strightjackets of the baroque or early classical styles? Or would he have exploded those in Beethoven-like ways also? Could this have happened without some romantic influence on him? Without such influence, and without the gathering impulses toward freedom and revolution in the early 19th C., would Beethoven himself been somewhat more sedate and conventionally respectable?

As Joy says, you do come up with the good ones. IMHO, B was a product of his time. In evolutionary terms we would call him "pre-evolved", which is to say that he had innate qualities that were allowed to be exposed by his enviroment. To continue in that vein (this is the development following the exposition, almost sonata-like;-))) the earliest dinosaurs that eventually became birds did not simply grow wings and fly because they wanted to, they had already developed appendages of sufficient construction as to allow them to fly opportunistically after food, or away from danger. I suggest that B had the tools to be great, but without the environment to bring them to the fore, he may well have withered on the vine. Cultural Darwinism if you will. That's my opinion, I may be wrong. ;-)
Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I'm trying to imagine Beethoven born 50 or 75 years before he was,oh my goodness what a different kettle of fish baroque music would have been.

I wonder if Handel would have been the same composer he was. And if not would Rod still like him?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I wonder if Handel would have been the same composer he was. And if not would Rod still like him?

All these 'if's!!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
All these 'if's!!!

Actually I should not have posed this question. It should be obvious to all of us by now that if Beethoven were born 75 years earlier, he would have BEEN Handel.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Actually I should not have posed this question. It should be obvious to all of us by now that if Beethoven were born 75 years earlier, he would have BEEN Handel.

A more astute observation than you would believe Chaszz.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[John Rasmussen]

May I suggest a twentieth-century parallel to LvB: Edgard Varese. He did not become deaf, and his compositions are many fewer than Beethoven's, but he also expanded the definition of music like our master. And, like Beethoven's late works, Varese's music took a long time to be fully understood and appreciated.

Also like Beethoven, Varese had an abusive father. It is amazing how many great men had absent or abusive fathers.

[Peter]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
May I suggest a twentieth-century parallel to LvB: Edgard Varese. He did not become deaf, and his compositions are many fewer than Beethoven's, but he also expanded the definition of music like our master. And, like Beethoven's late works, Varese's music took a long time to be fully understood and appreciated.

Also like Beethoven, Varese had an abusive father. It is amazing how many great men had absent or abusive fathers.

I have never heard of Varese so I don't see much of a parallel! Still I'm not really into avante-garde 20th century music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
All these 'if's!!!

Well, you know, it's much like the tree falling in the forest analogy of old philosophy, I suppose our own twist would have to be "Would a deaf composer still hear it?" ;-))
My sincere apologies for that, Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
May I suggest a twentieth-century parallel to LvB: Edgard Varese. He did not become deaf, and his compositions are many fewer than Beethoven's, but he also expanded the definition of music like our master. And, like Beethoven's late works, Varese's music took a long time to be fully understood and appreciated.

Also like Beethoven, Varese had an abusive father. It is amazing how many great men had absent or abusive fathers.

I suppose the issue here is what level of impact has Varese's music had? While I've heard of some of his music I think Stravinsky and Shoenberg--sorry about that spelling-- (to name a couple) have had a much greater impact on the development of music in the 20th Century. Beethoven's influence was quite immediate and long lasting.

[Joy]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
May I suggest a twentieth-century parallel to LvB: Edgard Varese. He did not become deaf, and his compositions are many fewer than Beethoven's, but he also expanded the definition of music like our master. And, like Beethoven's late works, Varese's music took a long time to be fully understood and appreciated.

Also like Beethoven, Varese had an abusive father. It is amazing how many great men had absent or abusive fathers.

I heard on our classical station today that today is Varese birthday, born in 1883. They went on to say that he "was an innovative and influential American composer, was born in Paris, and settled in New York in 1915."

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I suppose the issue here is what level of impact has Varese's music had? While I've heard of some of his music I think Stravinsky and Shoenberg--sorry about that spelling-- (to name a couple) have had a much greater impact on the development of music in the 20th Century. Beethoven's influence was quite immediate and long lasting.

From what I can gather his reputation is pretty much American based - he was heavily involved with experimental modern music. He certainly hasn't achieved the internationalism or fame that Beethoven did in his lifetime let alone today so I see little to compare the two men.


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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
I suggest that B had the tools to be great, but without the environment to bring them to the fore, he may well have withered on the vine. Cultural Darwinism if you will. That's my opinion, I may be wrong. ;-)
Gurn

I think Beethoven would have been Beethoven what ever age he might have been born into,he did have the tools to be great! do you think he would have withered on the vine if he had been born any other time or place he was?He struggled ,suffered and was insufferable ,felt love and joy and compassion,he had faith and doubts.Did I leave anything out?I think how lucky we are that he sat down at the keyboard and didn't become a brilliant doctor ,scientist,philosopher polititian or
painter.