Opus 31/#3

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Around 8 minutes - there is a really tricky passage in demisemiquavers which has to relax the tempo slightly.

Not sure what part you are thinking of, but are you saying the tempo is to be relaxed because a passage is tricky or that the music demands it regardless? I'm not one for reducing the tempo solely in the interest of maintaining clarity (not so much an issue with B's pianos). 8 mins would be too slow for me considering Komens performance (half a minute's difference can mean a lot in an allegro movement), the underlying momentum is always messed with too much from my experience. But 10 minutes is totally out of the question!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-15-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not sure what part you are thinking of, but are you saying the tempo is to be relaxed because a passage is tricky or that the music demands it regardless? I'm not one for reducing the tempo solely in the interest of maintaining clarity (not so much an issue with B's pianos). 8 mins would be too slow for me considering Komens performance (half a minute's difference can mean a lot in an allegro movement), the underlying momentum is always messed with too much from my experience. But 10 minutes is totally out of the question!

I'm only talking about stretching slightly the 3rd beat of bar 53 to be precise where 12 notes have to be played in one beat - I agree the underlying momentum of the passage should not be messed with, with true rubato it never should be. I agree that 10mins would be dragging the tempo.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, Komen's timings are as follows:

Allegro: 7.37
Scherzo: 5.30
Menuetto: 3.40
Presto: 4.23

5.30 for the scherzo seems a bit slow to me. Vivace, dear chap, vivace!!

[PDG]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Gloomy is not the word I prefer for this movement. I get a longing feeling as I listen to it, perhaps a lonely, longing feeling.

Well, unless you like feeling lonely and longing, I'd say these are gloomy feelings!

Perhaps gloomy is more appropriate for the op. 10/3 slow movement--even then it still escapes that mood.

Now I wouldn't call this piece gloomy, rather profound and challenging.

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
5.30 for the scherzo seems a bit slow to me. Vivace, dear chap, vivace!!

Well, Komen plays this piece in the most dynamic manner possible, assisted to a large degree by his fortepiano (sforzando effects a Steinway can only dream of!). It works well at this tempo, that's all I can say, but I would be open to consider quicker efforts. What would you consider a better time for this movment? The piano plays a large part in the success of K's performance.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm only talking about stretching slightly the 3rd beat of bar 53 to be precise where 12 notes have to be played in one beat - I agree the underlying momentum of the passage should not be messed with, with true rubato it never should be. I agree that 10mins would be dragging the tempo.

Well, with Beethoven even 'con brio' music music is often brought virtually to a halt from my experience. Thus I suppose its not true rubato I'm taking about, just total liberties taken with tempo flexibility.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, with Beethoven even 'con brio' music music is often brought virtually to a halt from my experience. Thus I suppose its not true rubato I'm taking about, just total liberties taken with tempo flexibility.

A proper rubato shouldn't upset the overall rhythm, you give back what you take so the phrase is still in time - I think Chopin suffers more than Beethoven with this, where enormous liberties are often taken as it is 'Romantic music'. Pianists are taught the opposite with the Classics: play in strict time with no flexibility - we know this is not how Beethoven played, in a rigid metronome fashion. However these slight inflections of rubato have to be subtle and skillfully managed.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
A proper rubato shouldn't upset the overall rhythm, you give back what you take so the phrase is still in time - I think Chopin suffers more than Beethoven with this, where enormous liberties are often taken as it is 'Romantic music'. Pianists are taught the opposite with the Classics: play in strict time with no flexibility - we know this is not how Beethoven played, in a rigid metronome fashion. However these slight inflections of rubato have to be subtle and skillfully managed.

I agree overall, but with one reservation, I think even genuine rubato is used in places where it is not necessary with Beethoven. I have a recording of the sonata op81a where Komen ruins the first allegro doing just this. This is unusual as K more typically plays quite strictly - his dynamic being loud and soft as opposed to fast and slow. Melvyn Tan also on the fp plays it at a more strict tempo to much better effect. From what I've heard rubato seems to be much harder to pull off convincingly on the fp than todays pianos. Which I why I suspect B's use of it would be less, or at least less obvious to the listener, than is typical today. Of course this does not as a result mean the use instread of ultra-metronomic tempi, but rather the flexibility would be more subtle.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I agree overall, but with one reservation, I think even genuine rubato is used in places where it is not necessary with Beethoven. I have a recording of the sonata op81a where Komen ruins the first allegro doing just this. This is unusual as K more typically plays quite strictly - his dynamic being loud and soft as opposed to fast and slow. Melvyn Tan also on the fp plays it at a more strict tempo to much better effect. From what I've heard rubato seems to be much harder to pull off convincingly on the fp than todays pianos. Which I why I suspect B's use of it would be less, or at least less obvious to the listener, than is typical today. Of course this does not as a result mean the use instread of ultra-metronomic tempi, but rather the flexibility would be more subtle.

I agree which is why I think we both use the word 'subtle' - obviously this comes down to interpretation and personal preference. Schnabel's markings for 1st mov (allegro) Op.81a range from minim=100-126. I think he plays around with the tempo too frequently and too obviously.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree which is why I think we both use the word 'subtle' - obviously this comes down to interpretation and personal preference. Schnabel's markings for 1st mov (allegro) Op.81a range from minim=100-126. I think he plays around with the tempo too frequently and too obviously.

Op81a is another problem work generally in my opinion. Tan's is the only version I have ever bought that I like to a fair degree and even he is not perfect. Badura Skoda is not bad but he too is sometimes caught in two minds. I think they feel they need to do more with the material , when in fact they don't and should just get on a play the damn thing!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-15-2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:
Now I wouldn't call this piece gloomy, rather profound and challenging.

Gloomy, in my mind is pretty much without hope. While I sense a longing I also sense hope and see beauty in it. No gloominess. And profound and challenging work, too, very well.

[Joy]

Here's a footnote to this piece. I heard Carl had made a publishing agreement with these 3 sonatas, Opus 30 No. 1,2,&3 and Beethoven was shocked when he learned the first editions included additional measures which the publisher thought were needed! I bet Beethoven was livid! The sonatas were published as intended though so I guess Beethoven got his way. Why did the publisher think it needed additional measures and did the publisher write them? How did he know B's style and how to write it?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Here's a footnote to this piece. I heard Carl had made a publishing agreement with these 3 sonatas, Opus 30 No. 1,2,&3 and Beethoven was shocked when he learned the first editions included additional measures which the publisher thought were needed! I bet Beethoven was livid! The sonatas were published as intended though so I guess Beethoven got his way. Why did the publisher think it needed additional measures and did the publisher write them? How did he know B's style and how to write it?

It's just something that publishers liked to do, I suppose they thought they were improving the music! When Handel's chamber music was published the publishers often inserted whole pieces that weren't Handel's within the opus!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 23, 2002).]

[Michael]

Opus 31 No. 3 is often nicknamed "The Hunt" as has been mentioned above, but I believe in Germany it is known as "Die Frage" or "The Question" because of the effect produced by the opening notes.
Antony Hopkins (the composer) calls the sonata "The Case of the Missing First Subject" and has written a very interesting - though very technical - article on it. It's a bit beyond me but I've struggled through it.
Anyway, he maintains that there is no recognizable First subject in the opening movement. It's not a criticism of the piece - just another of the many original traits in the whole work.
Another interesting fact is that the Trio section of the third movement was used as the basis of a two-piano set of variations by Saint-Saens.
Something PDG mentioned suggests there may be a Russian flavour to this movement. He said it reminded him of "The Carnival is Over" which itself was swiped from a Russian folk-song. Just a thought. (Now removing anorak).

Michael

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
It's just something that publishers liked to do, I suppose they thought they were improving the music! When Handel's chamber music was published the publishers often inserted whole pieces that weren't Handel's within the opus!

Well, they had some nerve! I bet Handel wasn't all that happy about it either unless that was the norm and the composers were used to it.