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**Rod** · 07-03-2002, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
'can you alter the fact that you are not wholly mine?' '....waiting to know if fate will hear our prayer'. I also believe the letter was sent and returned to Beethoven by the recipient - why else would he write 'I must close, so that you may recieve the letter immediately'?

The first quote could quite easily concern the fact that Beethoven and the anonymous woman were not married. Beethoven would never have been happy with such a situation if he had any serious relationship plans. I suggest the woman in question could have been single and simply did not want to go that far with Beethoven (or for some other reason could not regardless). I think the situation if the woman was Brentano would have been far more serious and far more dificult than is indicated in the letter, especially considering the position of Brentano's daughter in the whole affair, if such an affair was occuring. In fact I don't know how B could have even contemplated such a relationship ever developing - hence I still dismiss the notion of Antonie Brentano being the IB.

I agree the letter would probably have been sent and returned, another risky undertaking in my opinion if AB were to be the intended receipient.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-03-2002).]

**Peter** · 07-03-2002, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
The first quote could quite easily concern the fact that Beethoven and the anonymous woman were not married. Beethoven would never have been happy with such a situation if he had any serious relationship plans. I suggest the woman in question could have been single and simply did not want to go that far with Beethoven (or for some other reason could not regardless). I think the situation if the woman was Brentano would have been far more serious and far more dificult than is indicated in the letter, especially considering the position of Brentano's daughter in the whole affair, if such an affair was occuring. In fact I don't know how B could have even contemplated such a relationship ever developing - hence I still dismiss the notion of Antonie Brentano being the IB.

I agree the letter would probably have been sent and returned, another risky undertaking in my opinion if AB were to be the intended receipient.

I entirely agree that Beethoven would not have entertained the idea of a relationship outside marriage - he says as much in the letters - but the whole tone is that there is an obstacle to this relationship. I have never suggested that Beethoven was carrying on a sexual relationship with Antonie and the suggestion that the child was Beethoven's is preposterous - he simply would not have behaved in such a way. The secrecy that surrounded this affair with whoever it was implies that there was something to hide - if she meant so much to Beethoven, why is there not more evidence as to who she was? We know Beethoven's whereabouts from this time right through to his return to Vienna in November, yet there is no reference to a woman romantically.

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-03-2002, 06:33 PM

There is for sure a hinderence to the development of this relationship indicated in the letter, but I see no real evidence to support the idea that the tone of this letter indicates with any certainty the situation as it would relate to an affair with Brentano. The psychology is not right.

The hinderence with regard to AB would be beyond doubt insurmountable to the extent that I can't see Beethoven even considering it. Especially considering he judged Franz to be the very finest of men!

Clearly there was something already going on with this woman, their was a mutual attraction at least as Beethoven saw things, thus I assume that was to some large degree 'available'. I see Beethoven's frustration in the letter is because Beethoven wants marriage but there is some factor preventing it. Beethoven could never even consider marriage with AB. The whole affair if revealed would have brought total disgrace on Beethoven! This point is not really considered by the supporters of this theory. Looking at the list of various IB theories offered over the years as presented in Thayer's life, not one of them even considered AB as an option. The notion would I suspect be too unbelievable!

I am not concerned with the child from the point of view of her being Beethoven's, just from the point of view that I don't believe Beethoven would get himself involved in a potentially family breaking relationship. The family that were his best friends at that!!

Can you present concrete evidence concerning even that the date for the letter presented by Solomon is beyond doubt!?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Peter** · 07-03-2002, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Rod:

The hinderence with regard to AB would be beyond doubt insurmountable to the extent that I can't see Beethoven even considering it. Especially considering he judged Franz to be the very finest of men!

Can you present concrete evidence concerning even that the date for the letter presented by Solomon is beyond doubt!?

Well I thought the one thing that all scholars agreed on was that the year has to be 1812 - as it was written on a Monday it could also have been written in 1795, 1801, 1807, but those dates have been discounted as Beethoven's whereabouts are known with some certainty on those dates. Beethoven mentions Esterhazy in the letter as 'having met with the same fate as I did' (whilst travelling) - it is known that Esterhazy was in Prague at the same time as Beethoven in 1812 and had written a letter to Metternich on July 8th from Teplitz.

What is surprising to me is the fact that Beethoven kept this affair so secret - none of his friends appear to know anything about it - he obviously never discussed it with Schindler, unless Schindler knew the truth but deliberately tried to conceal the facts -something he was rather too fond of. During this affair Beethoven was meeting with Goethe who he saw frequently on a daily basis for nearly a week, yet Goethe makes no mentiuon in letters to his wife of Beethoven's romantic attachment - it must have been a secret and therefore why?

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-03-2002, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I thought the one thing that all scholars agreed on was that the year has to be 1812 - as it was written on a Monday it could also have been written in 1795, 1801, 1807, but those dates have been discounted as Beethoven's whereabouts are known with some certainty on those dates. Beethoven mentions Esterhazy in the letter as 'having met with the same fate as I did' (whilst travelling) - it is known that Esterhazy was in Prague at the same time as Beethoven in 1812 and had written a letter to Metternich on July 8th from Teplitz.

What is surprising to me is the fact that Beethoven kept this affair so secret - none of his friends appear to know anything about it - he obviously never discussed it with Schindler, unless Schindler knew the truth but deliberately tried to conceal the facts -something he was rather too fond of. During this affair Beethoven was meeting with Goethe who he saw frequently on a daily basis for nearly a week, yet Goethe makes no mentiuon in letters to his wife of Beethoven's romantic attachment - it must have been a secret and therefore why?

Well if the date is beyond doubt I suggest it cannot be Brentano, especially at that time! Perhaps he has only kept it secret inso far that no proof can be found to connect B with AB other that the uncertain circumstantial evidence presented in the letter! If it were someone else, the secrecy perhaps may not exist! Beethoven himself in the 1820's identified Guicciardi as his most special old flame, something that could have been but came to nothing. So in this context whoever the IB is is not important. Her importance lies only in her apparent anonymity. But until someone finds a signed confession by B himself, I will never accept AB as the IB!

So off u go to Vienna Peter! Unless someone else has any further ideas on the matter?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Peter** · 07-03-2002, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
Well if the date is beyond doubt I suggest it cannot be Brentano, especially at that time! Perhaps he has only kept it secret inso far that no proof can be found to connect B with AB other that the uncertain circumstantial evidence presented in the letter! If it were someone else, the secrecy perhaps may not exist! Beethoven himself in the 1820's identified Guicciardi as his most special old flame, something that could have been but came to nothing. So in this context whoever the IB is is not important. Her importance lies only in her apparent anonymity. But until someone finds a signed confession by B himself, I will never accept AB as the IB!

So off u go to Vienna Peter! Unless someone else has any further ideas on the matter?

Why can it not be Brentano especially at that time? She was the only person in the right place at the right time, Karlsbad July 1812 - your only argument that it cannot be her is that she was a married woman - this is true of virtually all the candidates suggested if 1812 is the correct date. Antonie requested a song from Beethoven in March 1812 entitled 'to the beloved' and the tagebuchs (begun later in 1812) refer to A and T in passionate terms - all more than just pure coincidence surely?

If the lady concerned were Gucciardi, the year would have to be 1801 - a possible year, until you read the letter B wrote to Amenda on July 1st 1801 in which he pours out his heart about his deafness and talks of travelling with Amenda if no cure can be found - hardly the 'stability at my age' referred to in the IB letters. My point about the secrecy is that whoever she was, Beethoven managed to keep the affair secret from those closest to him, even years after the event. Why?

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-03-2002, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Why can it not be Brentano especially at that time? She was the only person in the right place at the right time, Karlsbad July 1812 - your only argument that it cannot be her is that she was a married woman - this is true of virtually all the candidates suggested if 1812 is the correct date. Antonie requested a song from Beethoven in March 1812 entitled 'to the beloved' and the tagebuchs (begun later in 1812) refer to A and T in passionate terms - all more than just pure coincidence surely?

If the lady concerned were Gucciardi, the year would have to be 1801 - a possible year, until you read the letter B wrote to Amenda on July 1st 1801 in which he pours out his heart about his deafness and talks of travelling with Amenda if no cure can be found - hardly the 'stability at my age' referred to in the IB letters. My point about the secrecy is that whoever she was, Beethoven managed to keep the affair secret from those closest to him, even years after the event. Why?

Firstly my argument is not simply the point of marriage, it's based on an assessment of the content of the letter which does not to me fit in with the circumstances they would have been were AB to be the receipient. Why would B sign himself off as being forever faithfull when AB was by default at the time being totally unfaithfull? What bare faced Cheek!! Plus I have mentioned other factors before on this topic. All Solomon offers is times and places without, surprisingly for Solomon, any psychological assessment of the text of the letter. I consider B's relationship with the family as it had existed up until that time. This to me conflicts with AB being the IB. You know the matter of AB's request for the song means little, this point was made before when we discussed this matter.

I did not suggest that Guicciardi was the IB as you well know Peter.

Why MUST the IB be her and not someone else perhaps unknown? Do we have any evidence from AB herself that she was in love with Beethoven at the time?

Also I'd like to read the quotes from the Tage Buch you mention. I know there is debate into even what letters (ie abbrieviations of names) were written in conjunction with the IB. So untidy is B's handwriting.

You have said nothing that would condemn Beethoven in any law court (for condemn would be the correct word in the case of a love affair with AB).

And as I have said, it may not be a big secret. We're just looking at the wrong woman.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Peter** · 07-04-2002, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Rod:
Firstly my argument is not simply the point of marriage, it's based on an assessment of the content of the letter which does not to me fit in with the circumstances they would have been were AB to be the receipient. Why would B sign himself off as being forever faithfull when AB was by default at the time being totally unfaithfull? What bare faced Cheek!! Plus I have mentioned other factors before on this topic. All Solomon offers is times and places without, surprisingly for Solomon, any psychological assessment of the text of the letter. I consider B's relationship with the family as it had existed up until that time. This to me conflicts with AB being the IB. You know the matter of AB's request for the song means little, this point was made before when we discussed this matter.

I did not suggest that Guicciardi was the IB as you well know Peter.

Why MUST the IB be her and not someone else perhaps unknown? Do we have any evidence from AB herself that she was in love with Beethoven at the time?

Also I'd like to read the quotes from the Tage Buch you mention. I know there is debate into even what letters (ie abbrieviations of names) were written in conjunction with the IB. So untidy is B's handwriting.

You have said nothing that would condemn Beethoven in any law court (for condemn would be the correct word in the case of a love affair with AB).

And as I have said, it may not be a big secret. We're just looking at the wrong woman.

Your use of the word 'condemn' implies that if it were AB they had done something wrong -i.e had a sexual relationship despite her being married. I believe that if AB was the woman concerned then no physical relationship ever took place - is it not possible that Beethoven and Antonie felt this strong bond of love between them and that the relationship came to nothing precisely because of the impossible situation of her being married? In this circumstance neither of them did anything wrong as they took the only road open to them which was to part. Would this not explain Beethoven's words 'your love has made me both the happiest and the unhappiest of mortals'?

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-04-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Your use of the word 'condemn' implies that if it were AB they had done something wrong -i.e had a sexual relationship despite her being married. I believe that if AB was the woman concerned then no physical relationship ever took place - is it not possible that Beethoven and Antonie felt this strong bond of love between them and that the relationship came to nothing precisely because of the impossible situation of her being married? In this circumstance neither of them did anything wrong as they took the only road open to them which was to part. Would this not explain Beethoven's words 'your love has made me both the happiest and the unhappiest of mortals'?

Condemn or hippocrite would be appropriate words considering a) the letter infers an already existant love between the two, a love with the married wife of his self confessed best friend b) B's tendency to quickly condemn such infidelity when committed by others.

However considering AB is not the IB as far as I am concerned B is not guilty. In the letter B even talks about arranging for the two to live together! How did he think he was going to pull this off if the woman was AB?? The letter makes not even the slightest reference to the husband or the daughter - surely complicating factors (at the very least!) if B was planning to live with AB.

I could think of other reasons why this love could make B happy and unhappy.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-04-2002).]

**Peter** · 07-04-2002, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Rod:

However considering AB is not the IB as far as I am concerned B is not guilty. In the letter B even talks about arranging for the two to live together! How did he think he was going to pull this off if the woman was AB?? The letter makes not even the slightest reference to the husband or the daughter - surely complicating factors (at the very least!) if B was planning to live with AB.

I could think of other reasons why this love could make B happy and unhappy.

I understand your reasoning and I am not saying the IB definitely was AB. I think two other candidates are possibly Amalie Sebald and Rachel Levine - Beethoven's letter to Amalie in sep 1812 is however very different in tone to the IB letters. Do you know much about Rachel Levine (she was unmarried at the time and had met B in 1811). Since Beethoven was staying with the Brentanos during that period, AB must at least have known the identity of this woman if it wasn't herself -did Thayer not interview her as she didn't die until 1869?

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-04-2002, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
I understand your reasoning and I am not saying the IB definitely was AB. I think two other candidates are possibly Amalie Sebald and Rachel Levine - Beethoven's letter to Amalie in sep 1812 is however very different in tone to the IB letters. Do you know much about Rachel Levine (she was unmarried at the time and had met B in 1811). Since Beethoven was staying with the Brentanos during that period, AB must at least have known the identity of this woman if it wasn't herself -did Thayer not interview her as she didn't die until 1869?

I agree Sebald is almost certainly not the woman in question, but i know nothing about Levine, this is the first time I've heard of this name. I have not really looked into the alternatives, but I suggest she would be unmarried or at the very least separated, probably without children.

Who she is is not all that great a concern to me compared to who she isn't! - I don't think people really understand the full implications of Brentano being the IB. Nothing is impossible, but it flies in the face of everything I've gleaned about the Beethoven mindset over the years. If I'm wrong, well, I'll have to go back to square one! I put my head on the block.

I'll look into the matter of Thayer and AB.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-04-2002).]

**Peter** · 07-04-2002, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
I agree Sebald is almost certainly not the woman in question, but i know nothing about Levine, this is the first time I've heard of this name. I have not really looked into the alternatives, but I suggest she would be unmarried or at the very least separated, probably without children.

Who she is is not all that great a concern to me compared to who she isn't! - I don't think people really understand the full implications of Brentano being the IB. Nothing is impossible, but it flies in the face of everything I've gleaned about the Beethoven mindset over the years. If I'm wrong, well, I'll have to go back to square one! I put my head on the block.

I'll look into the matter of Thayer and AB.

Your arguments have convinced me that AB probably was not the IB - I still believe though that she is the key to the mystery as she must have known the identity of this woman. Levine later married Varnhagen Von Ense who Beethoven had met in 1811 and 1812. Another outsider is the Countess Elise von der Recke who I know nothing about.

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 07-05-2002, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
Your arguments have convinced me that AB probably was not the IB - I still believe though that she is the key to the mystery as she must have known the identity of this woman. Levine later married Varnhagen Von Ense who Beethoven had met in 1811 and 1812. Another outsider is the Countess Elise von der Recke who I know nothing about.

Well, as you know I'm not too worried about who it really is, as long as she fits my prescribed criteria! Perhaps the woman was a noblewoman promised to a man of her own station via her family, but whom she did not love. Thus she was and was not Beethoven's at the same time. His reference to him arranging their living together a desperate act of defiance! So many stories you could make from this letter!

Going back to Guicciardi, the occasion B was talking baout her as I mentioned before was via one of his discussion books - on this subject matter he saw it neccessary to write in French. Another example of B's secrecy as applied to his affairs of the heart.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-05-2002).]

**Peter** · 07-05-2002, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Rod:

Going back to Guicciardi, the occasion B was talking baout her as I mentioned before was via one of his discussion books - on this subject matter he saw it neccessary to write in French. Another example of B's secrecy as applied to his affairs of the heart.

I don't think writing in French on this issue is significant - if Beethoven wished for secrecy he would have spoken the words and not written them down as was his main practice with the conversation books anyway.

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'Man know thyself'

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