A question and a GREAT site

[Peter]

Took me a while to work out who T was !
Well having solved that one, I think in fairness to Tchaikovsky he did say he admired and had respect for Beethoven, though he did not love him - as I said previously Mozart was his idol and I don't think T can be too heavily censured for that - he also said something that I'm sure you would appreciate Rod 'It angers me how that bore Brahms is regarded as a great composer' !

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

I think Tchaikovsky was very influenced by his patroness, Nadejda von Meck, and I think she egged him on in his dislike of Brahms. There seems to be a lot of Brahms-bashing lately and his stock seems to be very low - or am I imagining it? Forty or fifty years ago he was up there with B, or very nearly.
Personally, I think his four symphonies, along with two or three by Mozart and a half-a-dozen by Haydn are the only ones fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Beethoven's.

Michael

[Peter]

Michael - please don't take my quote about Brahms as being my view ! I agree with you, though I'm not sure that the blame for T's antipathy can be layed at Von Meck's door, after all Tchaikovsky was a highly cultivated man, quite capable of forming his own opinions.
I'm interested in your choice of Symphonies to be mentioned in the same breath as B's - I would have chosen exactly the same works you mention - though possibly I would have added one or two by Schubert.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Took me a while to work out who T was !
Well having solved that one, I think in fairness to Tchaikovsky he did say he admired and had respect for Beethoven, though he did not love him - as I said previously Mozart was his idol and I don't think T can be too heavily censured for that - he also said something that I'm sure you would appreciate Rod 'It angers me how that bore Brahms is regarded as a great composer' !

Haven't got much time so I abbreviate at every opportunity! I don't know whether Brahms was a bore or not, nor do I particularly care about T's opinions regarding Brahms or anyone else. I don't take T or his music seriously, sorry, but I'm into Premier League composers!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Michael - please don't take my quote about Brahms as being my view ! I agree with you, though I'm not sure that the blame for T's antipathy can be layed at Von Meck's door, after all Tchaikovsky was a highly cultivated man, quite capable of forming his own opinions.
I'm interested in your choice of Symphonies to be mentioned in the same breath as B's - I would have chosen exactly the same works you mention - though possibly I would have added one or two by Schubert.

These men? In the same breath as Beethoven!!?? If you say so boys! Pity Handel didn't compose such works!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

I knew that would stir things up a bit !
Yes I would mention those composers in the same breath, and Bach and Handel as well !
We've been over this one countless times, but from my point of view it is not a competition as to who is the best - Beethoven in my estimation is the greatest composer - the one I love most, which is why I'm here, but that does not take away the greatness of others .

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I knew that would stir things up a bit !
Yes I would mention those composers in the same breath, and Bach and Handel as well !
We've been over this one countless times, but from my point of view it is not a competition as to who is the best - Beethoven in my estimation is the greatest composer - the one I love most, which is why I'm here, but that does not take away the greatness of others .

Don't worry, I only pretend to be 'stirred'! My face doesn't go red when I slag off T or Rachmanillow or any of the others! I confess when I check out a cd store I sometimes shake my head a little and sigh when I see some poor souls browsing in the Mahler section (to name but one!). Bach's ok, though I prefer Handel's forward momentum and drama, contrasted with a strong Italianate melodic line, as opposed the Bach's brand of counterpoint, well, that's the way this humble uneducated servant sees it.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael]

Originally posted by Peter:
Michael - .
I'm interested in your choice of Symphonies to be mentioned in the same breath as B's - I would have chosen exactly the same works you mention - though possibly I would have added one or two by Schubert.

I have a blind (deaf?) spot about Schubert and I can't explain or justify it. I don't like the Unfinished very much, the Ninth is of "hellish" length and I can't even take to the string quartets and I am a string quartet freak. It's not for want of listening. The one exception is the 5th symphony which I adore.
The Mozart symphonies I referred to are the last three or four and the Haydn's would be those of the last twelve that I've heard - especially the London Symphony itself, Opus 104, also 45 and 48. I have only heard a tiny fraction of his symphonic output and I haven't come across a dud yet.
In fact, I prefer Haydn to Mozart and I think he was unfortunate to be overshadowed by those two giants. Haydn arguably wrote more symphonic and string quartet masterpieces than the other two. Note I said "more masterpieces" not "greater".

Michael

[Peter]

Michael, I wonder what you think of Schubert's last 3 sonatas (especially the Bb which I adore) or the Impromptus and songs - I think Schubert did have a problem dealing with larger forms, although I still regard the last 2 Symphonies as truly remarkable, especially for a man in his 20's.
In comparing Mozart and Haydn it is interesting that you cite the Symphonies and Quartets , but what about the Piano concertos and Operas ? - I think Haydn falls down there a bit. Having said that, much of Haydn has been neglected, as you say, many of the earlier symphonies, particularly from the Sturm und drang period are very fine.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-11-2000).]

[Michael]

I suppose a person's choice of musical forms dictates who their favourite composers will be (a generalisation). I have always preferred symphonic music to any other - and so, for me, opera comes way down the list. I agree that Haydn has been surpassed in the operatic category by Mozart. I like one or two of M's piano concertos but I don't know anything about Haydn's? Did he write many?
Also, I am totally ignorant of Schubert's piano sonatas (gasp, shock, horror!) I should broaden my musical interests, but I keep listening to bloody Beethoven!

Michael

[Serge]

But why is everyone forgetting Schumann?!? Yes, he wasn't much of an orchestral composer, but for some reason I am enthralled by his attempts at it (the Overture, Scherzo, and Finale; the Piano Concerto; the symphonies, the klavierstucke...) I am willing to place at least certain movements of his symphonies among B.'s (although they are mere accompaniment to Beethoven, not competition) and I think his piano concerto (which was originally just another klavierstucke) is a very noble contributor to the genre. I would in remiss not to mention Schumann when everyone else is bringing out their second-favorite composers into the fray. And to think that schumann started composing his symphonies out of the joy of being newly married (or engaged?) to Clara! How sweet! How..."Romantic"...

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
I agree that Haydn has been surpassed in the operatic category by Mozart. I like one or two of M's piano concertos but I don't know anything about Haydn's? Did he write many?
Also, I am totally ignorant of Schubert's piano sonatas (gasp, shock, horror!) I should broaden my musical interests, but I keep listening to bloody Beethoven!

Michael

Haydn wrote few Piano Concertos, only one (in D major) that I am aware of receives the occasional airing, and it is a rather charming work. I'm sorry that out of Mozart's 27 Piano Concertos, only 1 or 2 are popular with you. There are at least 12 that are masterpieces. That you are not that familiar with Schubert's piano music is a loss you simply must rectify !! - If I had to choose my desert Island disks, the last Bb sonata (D.960) of Schubert would be one of them - you simply must get it ! - that work alone justifies Schubert as one of the greats. The Impromtus also are absolutely glorious.

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'Man know thyself'

[Stephen F Vasta]

<<Do you all think the same way about Mahler?
What about Tchaikovsky? To me his 6th symphony can only be surpassed by B's 9th, 3rd and 7th. (in that order). >>

I certainly don't think as negatively about Mahler as Rod apparently does. (In fact, my other "regular" online music information comes from the Mahler-List!) But his symphonies behave very differently from Beethoven's, both expressively and structurally; so if one takes Beethoven as the paradigm for what a symphony should be, Mahler will inevitably seem self-indulgent - as he also will in careless performances!

Tchaikovsky can suffer much the same problem. The Sixth Symphony is a great work, when it is played for itself rather than used as a vehicle for the conductor's own neuroses. (And who, I hear you ask, plays the piece for itself? Eugene Ormandy, for starters.)

Steve

[Peter]

Stephen I agree with you about Tchaikovsky and Mahler - I could add other names such as Schumann, Sibelius, Vaughan-Williams and Elgar as well - I don't see why having a tremendous admiration for Beethoven means dismissing most other composers for some people (mentioning no names !) - you get this with certain composers - a loyal core of devotees who can see nothing in any other composer !
Overall, Beethoven means the most to me as he is the most consistantly great in every genre.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-12-2000).]

[Michael]

I am very fond of Tchaikovsky (his music, I hasten to add, bearing in mind some of the recent messages!) The first symphonies I ever listened to were his 5th and 6th (conducted by Ormandy, coincidentally) and I would not be without them.
Serge mentions Schumann and I am a great admirer of his symphonies, particularly the first and the fourth. I think the criticisms of his thick orchestral writing have been exaggerated as recent recordings with period instruments have shown.
Though I admit to an overpowering obsession with Beethoven, I have recordings of many works by nearly all major composers. The trouble is that almost any Beethoven work can be listened to again and again and it always yields something new. And life is so short ............

Michael