Mozart's "Ode to Joy"

[Peter]

Do you mean the chorale or Bach's arrangement - or the second movement of the whole cantata "Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben"?

(I'm fascinated by musical coincidences!)

The Chorale theme which starts with exactly the same notes (in different key and rhythm).

[Michael]

Right, thanks.
There are occasions where Beethoven deliberately used themes by other composers (and I don't mean his sets of variations.)

The third movement of the 5th symphony opens with the exact notes that open the last movement of Mozart's 40th, and in the final movement of the C minor symphony, B quotes a theme from the slow movement of the Jupiter. You could almost put it down to coincidence except for the fact that portions of the Mozart works are found among Beethoven's sketches for the 5th.

He also deliberately quotes Handel's Hallelujah chorus in the last movement of the Missa Solemnis.

[hal9000]

No doubt that fraud Herr Beethoven would be sued in a copyright lawsuit in modern day.

I don't really think I'm being facetious, either :P.

[Michael]

No doubt that fraud Herr Beethoven would be sued in a copyright lawsuit in modern day.

I don't really think I'm being facetious, either :P.

Yep. If John Lennon and George Harrison can get sued anybody can.

[Peter]

Right, thanks.
There are occasions where Beethoven deliberately used themes by other composers (and I don't mean his sets of variations.)

The third movement of the 5th symphony opens with the exact notes that open the last movement of Mozart's 40th,

Yes maybe, but this is simply a common rising arpeggio figure which Beethoven had also used earlier in the opening of his sonata Op.2/1. I don't see this as anything like the borrowings that were common in the Baroque era, where Handel for example would take whole chunks of another composer's work and insert them into his own!

Far more significant I think is something like the conception of the Pastoral symphony which I have referred to before. Justin Knecht (1752-1817) had written a symphony titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreeable songs.' Now it is certain that Beethoven knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

[Zevy]

A series of four-note phrases in C minor. Hmm. That rings a Beethoven bell!

Even worse is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reEdfrWZxVY

Maybe we should call this the Mozart Reference Site.

That's another very obvious one. Beethoven started with those two colossal Eb major chords. I'm sure Mozart wouldn't mind...

[Peter]

I should also mention that the rising chord figure that opens the finale of Mozart's 40th was actually a common device known as the 'Mannheim skyrocket'.
http://leadingtone.tumblr.com/post/1...assical-period

[Michael]

I should also mention that the rising chord figure that opens the finale of Mozart's 40th was actually a common device known as the 'Mannheim skyrocket'.
http://leadingtone.tumblr.com/post/1...assical-period

Yes - Beethoven makes great use of it in Piano Sonata No. 1.

And, regarding the Knecht "Pastoral" symphony. John Eliot Gardiner drew attention to this in a BBC documentary over 20 years ago. He also got his orchestra to perform a movement which involved pizzicato strings and was eerily similar to the third movement of Beethoven's Fifth. Needless to say, this was written before the Beethoven work. I can't remember the name of the composer and I have been unable to track down this documentary.



.

[dahc]

Exactly one minute into this piece you may hear a familiar Beethoven tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEBYufTXJQk

Our tonal memories can imprint a phrase. It is possible Beethoven had heard this music as a young musician. He had a extensive background and his father who influenced his training held a salaried position too

[Michael]

Our tonal memories can imprint a phrase. It is possible Beethoven had heard this music as a young musician. He had a extensive background and his father who influenced his training held a salaried position too

Possibly. However, I was being facetious in accusing Beethoven of plagiarism and I agree with Peter that themes based on arpeggio figures are bound to have similarities and these were common currency in the Mozart and Beethoven era.

The striking similarity between Mozart's Bastien overture and the opening of the Eroica is one example - but both themes are based on a common chord - in Beethoven's case E flat major.

The Mozart work is obscure enough even today and it's highly unlikely that Beethoven ever heard it prior to the Eroica. (Actually, the damn Bastien thing is growing on me the more I listen to it!)

[dahc]

Thank you. I was unaware of these Mozart pieces and there similarity to Beethoven themes. The Bastien Overture is delightful.
I think fraud Herr Beethoven needs to explain himself.

[AeolianHarp]

It's nothing when you consider that these "pop stars" today are churning out crap that sounds like the same rubbish song over and over again- they even all "sing" alike- "wo wo wo ..saturday night...wo wooooo.." through the same voice box.

[dahc]

I should also mention that the rising chord figure that opens the finale of Mozart's 40th was actually a common device known as the 'Mannheim skyrocket'.
http://leadingtone.tumblr.com/post/1...assical-period

And Yes, a very wonderfully surprising statement of the "mannheim rocket" appears in The Eflat piano trio OP 1, 1.