Interesting article about Beethoven's illnesses

[AeolianHarp]

http://www.pscpartners.org/sites/def...-Beethoven.pdf

I have done a fair bit of reading of medical reports online. I am leaning towards the typhus/typhoid fever he had in the late 1790s being the instigator in many of his ailments.

[Peter]

I'm leaning towards the last bit of the article - 'does it matter?'! There are so many possibilities that we can only speculate - a bit like the dangerous modern day habit of checking out our symptoms online and coming up with the worst scenario! Really the only point of a diagnosis is to get treated, it's not much use to the patient nearly 200 years on!

[dahc]

I read some research that claimed Beethoven unwittingly poisined himself by drinking a daily bottle of plumed wine. Back in his time they would add lead to the wine to make it sweet the lead would have created many symptoms including severe tinnitus and deafness I'll look up that book.

[Peter]

I read some research that claimed Beethoven unwittingly poisined himself by drinking a daily bottle of plumed wine. Back in his time they would add lead to the wine to make it sweet the lead would have created many symptoms including severe tinnitus and deafness I'll look up that book.

Yes I remember that, I think the utensils were also thought to blame - the trouble is what about everyone else who drank wine?

[Megan]

Apparently, Plumbed wine, had lead acetate added to it for sweetness. Which makes me wonder if Beethoven would even buy cheap plonk , or was this a general practice adding lead acetate in those days? If this is the case then I would have thought thousands of other consumers of wine would have suffered the same problem.

Oops , I think I posted at the same moment as Peter entered his post.

[Megan]

I was just pondering whether Beethoven wore a wig like Mozart did when young?
Also thinking about lead acetate which I think is a white powdery chemical compound substance, I think, was this used to powder the wigs? I'm letting my mind wander a bit here.

[Peter]

I was just pondering whether Beethoven wore a wig like Mozart did when young?
Also thinking about lead acetate which I think is a white powdery chemical compound substance, I think, was this used to powder the wigs? I'm letting my mind wander a bit here.

There is a silhouette pertaining to be of a teenage Beethoven with a wig - he may have worn this at court functions in the orchestra - BUT, so would everyone else and let's not forget Haydn continued wearing wigs long after they were out of fashion and he lived to be 77!

[AeolianHarp]

Apparently, Plumbed wine, had lead acetate added to it for sweetness. Which makes me wonder if Beethoven would even buy cheap plonk , or was this a general practice adding lead acetate in those days? If this is the case then I would have thought thousands of other consumers of wine would have suffered the same problem.

Oops , I think I posted at the same moment as Peter entered his post.

I don't think he had long term (severe at least) lead poisoning- he bought good quality wine, not cheap plonk.
The lead found in his hair was due to his last few weeks from the lead plasters put on the wounds from when the doctors tapped his stomach.

[AeolianHarp]

There is a silhouette pertaining to be of a teenage Beethoven with a wig - he may have worn this at court functions in the orchestra - BUT, so would everyone else and let's not forget Haydn continued wearing wigs long after they were out of fashion and he lived to be 77!

Yes I agree re the wigs and Beethoven didn't wear wigs past his teens. With glorious hair like he had who needs wigs!

[grace65]

I read somewhere that medicines back then were also metal based and if Beethoveen used large amounts of medicines prescribed by his doctor for his never ending health problems, there is a possiblity that this could have caused Beethoven to have a high lead content in his system. There was also speculation that Beethoven's brother Johann the apothecary might have given Beethoven medicines as well (on the side), but that's just speculation.

Then again maybe Beethoven chewed on too many lead pencil. Another theory, the mineral baths...who knows.

Just had another thought, Beethoveen's lead levels were compared to people from OUR time, just wondering if the results would have been different if his levels were compared to people from his time, (which I know is impossible to do), after all Stephan Von Brunning died approx 6 weeks after Beethoven from liver problems...just a thought.

[AeolianHarp]

I read somewhere that medicines back then were also metal based and if Beethoveen used large amounts of medicines prescribed by his doctor for his never ending health problems, there is a possiblity that this could have caused Beethoven to have a high lead content in his system. There was also speculation that Beethoven's brother Johann the apothecary might have given Beethoven medicines as well (on the side), but that's just speculation.

Some of them were yes. But they also used deadly nightshade in small amounts in powders ( they used to give it for intestinal/gastric complaints) and in one letter in the 1820s Beethoven describes taking some kind of powder/potion which made him feel ill ("weakened" is how he put it) afterwards.I have seen biographers say he took lots of medicines given to him by Johann, but I have never seen Beethoven mention this in his letters, so I am doubtful of the truth of this. Anyway, whatever medicines he took from whatever doctor seem to have had little or no helpful effects at all- and I bet some were in fact harmful, though of course that was not the doctors' intentions- they didn't know what is known today.

Just had another thought, Beethoveen's lead levels were compared to people from OUR time, just wondering if the results would have been different if his levels were compared to people from his time, (which I know is impossible to do), after all Stephan Von Brunning died approx 6 weeks after Beethoven from liver problems...just a thought.

I didn't know that about Stephan. True, people back then might well have generally had higher levels of lead in their bodies.

[grace65]

Some of them were yes. But they also used deadly nightshade in small amounts in powders ( they used to give it for intestinal/gastric complaints) and in one letter in the 1820s Beethoven describes taking some kind of powder/potion which made him feel ill ("weakened" is how he put it) afterwards.I have seen biographers say he took lots of medicines given to him by Johann, but I have never seen Beethoven mention this in his letters, so I am doubtful of the truth of this. Anyway, whatever medicines he took from whatever doctor seem to have had little or no helpful effects at all- and I bet some were in fact harmful, though of course that was not the doctors' intentions- they didn't know what is known today.




I didn't know that about Stephan. True, people back then might well have generally had higher levels of lead in their bodies.

Actually, it was approx 10 weeks, my mistake. Stephan Von Breunning had been ill for quite some time. According to his son Gerhard Von Breunning he writes in his book, Memories of Beethoven, "As a result of these distressing scenes at the auction in the room where Beethoven had died, my father suffered a relapse, with an inflamed liver that soon confined him to his bed".....but that's another story.

[AeolianHarp]

Actually, it was approx 10 weeks, my mistake. Stephan Von Breunning had been ill for quite some time. According to his son Gerhard Von Breunning he writes in his book, Memories of Beethoven, "As a result of these distressing scenes at the auction in the room where Beethoven had died, my father suffered a relapse, with an inflamed liver that soon confined him to his bed".....but that's another story.

I have this as an ebook, just looking at it again. I remember now the auction mention by Gerhard. It was awful- who arranged that?! He doesn't say- probably too polite to name them.

[grace65]

I have this as an ebook, just looking at it again. I remember now the auction mention by Gerhard. It was awful- who arranged that?! He doesn't say- probably too polite to name them.

It was awful, and so unorganized. I don't believe that Gerhard Von Breunning would've known as he was quite young. I don't know who organized the auction, reading Thayer he writes that Breunning, Schindler and Johann Van Beethoveen were mostly involved in Beethoven's affairs while he was dying and after his death. Maybe someone else can answer that question.

Just one more quote from Gerard Von Breunning, " month of April, to see the rooms in the Schwarspanierhaus, which were sacred to us, desecrated by the auction of the house furnishings and Beethoven's belongings. A miserable collection of old clothes dealers had found their way in, and the articles of clothing that came under the hammer were tugged this way and that, the pieces of furniture pushed and thumped, everything disarranged and soiled. My father who had been ill several times during Beethoven's illness forces himself to be present, and follow the proceeding vigorously, "So that there shouldn't be any cheating". Very sad

[AeolianHarp]

Just one more quote from Gerard Von Breunning, " month of April, to see the rooms in the Schwarspanierhaus, which were sacred to us, desecrated by the auction of the house furnishings and Beethoven's belongings. A miserable collection of old clothes dealers had found their way in, and the articles of clothing that came under the hammer were tugged this way and that, the pieces of furniture pushed and thumped, everything disarranged and soiled. My father who had been ill several times during Beethoven's illness forces himself to be present, and follow the proceeding vigorously, "So that there shouldn't be any cheating". Very sad

Yes, I read this too Grace- very disrespectful to dear Ludwig! I wish his items had all been saved in one place. Shame the building was demolished too.

Have you got a hard copy of this book? It is hard to find now as it is out of print, but I am so grateful to Project Gutenberg for putting the ebook free online. Maybe I will print it out one day and make a nice cover for it!