When did Beethoven start his romance with Guicciardi, 1800 or 1801?

[Peter]

So, it's quite clear this form would not have been used in a letter between people who are said to be only platonic friends.

Except that Beethoven addressed Franz Brunsvik with 'du'!

[AeolianHarp]

Except that Beethoven addressed Franz Brunsvik with 'du'!

I think she means to a woman.

[Fredrika]

Except that Beethoven addressed Franz Brunsvik with 'du'!

Oh yes- forgot to point that out, I've understood it's different with the opposite gender. Franz was a very close friend, like a brother. In either case it's a signal of being on intimate terms with some person, and, considering the time period when only heterosexual relationships were accepted there was no danger of misinterpretation if a man calls another man "du".

And yes, Steblin is fluent in both English and German, living currently in Vienna for I don't know how many decades already! She's written many articles in the leading Austrian Music magazine Österreichische Musikzeitschrift, though, I don't know if they have been translated into English. The latest one was titled "Beethoven's Immortal Beloved: the Riddle Solved."

[AeolianHarp]

So much needs to be translated it seems- or more people learn German!

[Peter]

So much needs to be translated it seems- or more people learn German!

I'm learning Italian - better climate!

[Peter]

Oh yes- forgot to point that out, I've understood it's different with the opposite gender. Franz was a very close friend, like a brother. In either case it's a signal of being on intimate terms with some person, and, considering the time period when only heterosexual relationships were accepted there was no danger of misinterpretation if a man calls another man "du".

And yes, Steblin is fluent in both English and German, living currently in Vienna for I don't know how many decades already! She's written many articles in the leading Austrian Music magazine Österreichische Musikzeitschrift, though, I don't know if they have been translated into English. The latest one was titled "Beethoven's Immortal Beloved: the Riddle Solved."

Thanks for that Fredrika.

[EternaLisa]

So much needs to be translated it seems- or more people learn German!

so much significance unknown that can't be tracked/discovered, since it was never in writing/recorded/documented-Beethoven's movements, people he met/knew that he didn't document/mention-missing pieces, forever. Tard. Fret, fret. ;-)

xoxox
E

[thesunlover]

Peter, Harp, How are you? I am still studying your posts here. Thank you both!

Who is Fanny?

Was Minona a common German female name? Does it really mean "Anonim - the child with no name - spelled backwards"?

[thesunlover]

"Countess Josephine von Brunsvik died on 31 March 1821, at age 42. During this year, Beethoven composed his very last Piano Sonatas Op. 110 and Op. 111, believed by many musicologists[33] to be clearly like requiems, with discernible reminiscences to "Josephine's Theme", the Andante favori.[34]"

I don't believe it -- Op110, Op111 are requiems. Do you?

[thesunlover]

Was it true? Did Stackelberg know it??

"Josephine, alone and increasingly ailing, “hired the dubious mathematics teacher Andrian [Karl Eduard von Andrehan-Werburg] ... she gradually fell under his charismatic spell, becoming pregnant and giving birth to Emilie [on 16 September 1815], hiding in a hut.”:

[AeolianHarp]

Peter, Harp, How are you? I am still studying your posts here. Thank you both!

Who is Fanny?

Not too bad thanks, how are you doing? Franziska ("Fanny") Giannattasio del Rio (1790-1873), was a daughter of the headmaster of an elite Viennese boarding school of which Karl was sent to.

http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/389.html

She had strong feelings for Beethoven writing in her diary of 17 November 1816:
"Beethoven dropped by today.[...] It has been a long time since I found him so interesting. Everything he says is worthwhile. [...] As foolish as it is to write this, I must do so for the sake of my feelings [...] He took no more notice of me. But what do I want, foolish girl! I must be satisfied that he is still as fond of me as he obviously is."

http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/389.html

(The above article is interesting except for the Antonie error yet again! )

Was Minona a common German female name? Does it really mean "Anonim - the child with no name - spelled backwards"?

No, not a common name. And yes it does spell that backwards:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anonim

http://www.behindthename.com/submit/name/minona

[AeolianHarp]

"Countess Josephine von Brunsvik died on 31 March 1821, at age 42. During this year, Beethoven composed his very last Piano Sonatas Op. 110 and Op. 111, believed by many musicologists[33] to be clearly like requiems, with discernible reminiscences to "Josephine's Theme", the Andante favori.[34]"

I don't believe it -- Op110, Op111 are requiems. Do you?

Of a sort they are, I cannot put it onto words; listen to them and see what they say to you. There is something in them that goes beyond words. I also find that quality in Hammerklavier sonata and Piano Sonata No. 30 in E major, Op. 109. They just have that feel of reminiscence and resolution.

[AeolianHarp]

Was it true? Did Stackelberg know it??

"Josephine, alone and increasingly ailing, “hired the dubious mathematics teacher Andrian [Karl Eduard von Andrehan-Werburg] ... she gradually fell under his charismatic spell, becoming pregnant and giving birth to Emilie [on 16 September 1815], hiding in a hut.”:

I think not since she hid under another name and was estranged from Stackelberg, who took delight in going to the police and telling tales- but Emilie was not mentioned.

[thesunlover]

Fine. Thanks. I've put most of my spare time on Beethoven study. The more I learn, the more questions I have. Thank you again for your helpful answers. I don't believe Antonie is IB anymore.

(1) I'd rather treat these late sonatas as pure music. Did Beethoven say something regarding Josephine's death?

(2) Stackelberg didn't know his wife had a new born baby? How come? He never suspected to have been cuckolded? Poor Emilie died at age 2.

http://www.geni.com/people/Emilie-vo...00024102890168

[thesunlover]

Hi Harp,

The info in your #65 is rather new and astounding!!!

When were these late Josephine letters revealed or published? No researcher paid attention to these shaking words before Mr. Klapproth? -- "Because you are always talking abut that woman, the husband should recognise among his children yours as the one, who possesses musical talent."