biography

[kfarad]

This summer I read the biography of Johannes Brahms by Jan Swafford. I enjoyed it very much and learned a lot about it. What I liked especially was the detailed explanations about his music in addition to the story of his life. Highly recommended to all musicians.

[Peter]

I'll check it out - Since you've mentioned Brahms I wonder what others think of the notion that Brahms was Beethoven's true successor?

P.S I loved your website - very impressive amount of music you've written, but I've yet to find time to download some of your midis!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by kfarad:
This summer I read the biography of Johannes Brahms by Jan Swafford. I enjoyed it very much and learned a lot about it. What I liked especially was the detailed explanations about his music in addition to the story of his life. Highly recommended to all musicians.

On the subject of Biographies, I've noticed a new Beethoven effort, a Biographical Dictionary on Beethoven. I flicked through it, very detailed accounts of all persons and matter connected with B arranged alphabetically. Uses all the latest research. £35 here in London however. I may wait for the softback edition...or I may not.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'll check it out - Since you've mentioned Brahms I wonder what others think of the notion that Brahms was Beethoven's true successor?

Maybe so, but why listen to Brahms when you can listen to Beethoven?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Maybe so, but why listen to Brahms when you can listen to Beethoven?

Well I've just been listening to Brahms's German Requiem - it really is a first rate work and the influence of B is quite apparent, obviously the 9th and the Missa Solemnis in particular. None of the generation that immediately followed B produced Symphonies of great stature (the Schumann are fine but not first rate) but with Brahms this changed. It just seems that at a time when Wagner and Liszt were going off at a tangent, Brahms was the only one continuing in the great classic tradition.

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'Man know thyself'

[Bob the Composer]

I don't really think of Brahms as Beethoven's successor, as that would imply two things:
#1 His music is similar to Beethoven's
#2 He was good at it
He was never really very close to #1, and #2 didn't really come to him until later in life. I have generally not liked what I have heard of the German Requiem, I think that choral music was the only thing that consistently eluded him. I like Mendelsohn's 3rd, thats a good post-Beethoven symphony.

Bob

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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Bob the Composer:
I don't really think of Brahms as Beethoven's successor, as that would imply two things:
#1 His music is similar to Beethoven's
#2 He was good at it
He was never really very close to #1, and #2 didn't really come to him until later in life. I have generally not liked what I have heard of the German Requiem, I think that choral music was the only thing that consistently eluded him. I like Mendelsohn's 3rd, thats a good post-Beethoven symphony.

Bob

Well there are similarities in that he based his material on motives and that he was a master of sonata form unlike other Romantic composers. Regarding your second point I think he was more than good at it - though his Symphonies don't reach the heights attained by Beethoven, they certainly get closer than Mendelsohnn whose works are consistently marred by their feminine cadences and their polished 'politeness'. I don't think Brahms improved with age as you implied, in fact there is little development in his style with early works being similar to late works - he reached a plateau of consistency fairly early on in his career.

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'Man know thyself'

[kfarad]

Brahms was modest in that he always belittled himself next to Beehtoven. He admired Beethoven greatly and followed in his footsteps of being innovative, while also sticking with traditions of form. In that way, yes, in my opinion he is Beethoven's successor. He was definately trying to be, and if he isn't, he is the person he came closest. They were both masters the masters of form, chamber music, and symphonies of their time.

Mendelssohn is one of my favorite composers, and I love his 3rd (scottish) symphony. Either form is not there, or I don't understand it, but his use of form and the feel of his pieces is not very Beethovenesque...I think... I love him, but I don't see him as a successor to Beethoven. I agree with what was said earlier about his "politeness" If anything, more of a transition into the non-form late-romantic style.

Thanks for looking at my site, Peter

Rod: Does this dictionary-biography have detailed explanations and discussions about his music?

I appreciate the Brahms-Beethoven-etc discussion... but can anyone suggest a good Beethoven biography???

[This message has been edited by kfarad (edited 11-25-2001).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by kfarad:
Brahms was modest in that he always belittled himself next to Beehtoven. He admired Beethoven greatly and followed in his footsteps of being innovative, while also sticking with traditions of form. In that way, yes, in my opinion he is Beethoven's successor. He was definately trying to be, and if he isn't, he is the person he came closest. They were both masters the masters of form, chamber music, and symphonies of their time.

I agree with your Brahms assessment and it makes a refreshing change for him to be discussed here in relation to Beethoven instead of Mozart! If you are looking for an in depth Beethoven biography you can't do better than Thayer's Life of Beethoven, Elliot Forbes (Editor). Princeton University Press. 1991. ISBN 0691027196

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by kfarad:


Rod: Does this dictionary-biography have detailed explanations and discussions about his music?

No from what I flicked through, but musical critisim and analysis is not the function of a biography anyway.

Originally posted by kfarad:

I appreciate the Brahms-Beethoven-etc discussion... but can anyone suggest a good Beethoven biography???

If it is actually a biography and not a musical analysis you require, then 'Thayer's Life of Beethoven' is easily the most comprehensive option, though not the most up to date.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Another good book is the "Beethoven Encyclopedia" by Paul Nettl. It refers to just about everyone and everything in Beethoven's life and all in alphabetical order. In the back of the book is a very good chronological chapter detailing even his ancestors from 1712-1827.

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
In the back of the book is a very good chronological chapter detailing even his ancestors from 1712-1827.

Joy

Only from 1712? we go back to 1470 on the family tree page of this site!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

I know! I've checked it out!! Well, it only goes to show how much more detailed and organized you are!!

Joy

[Bob the Composer]

Well, I don't view Mendelsohn's third symphony as being 'polite'. The first movement is quite obviously in sonata form, with repeats like Beethoven, unlike later romantic composers. The orchestration is a little odd, though in the score I have looked at, the orchestra isn't any bigger than in a typical Beethoven symphony. It's certainly a little more Beethovenesque than most of his works.

Bob

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Some have said I am ripe for the Madhouse. Does that make me Beethoven? No, but it is interesting.

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
Only from 1712? we go back to 1470 on the family tree page of this site!

And I'm sure Joy actually meant 12 minutes past 5!

Tea-time with LvB (pass the sugar).....