Why so few women composers

[AeolianHarp]

Interesting article and written by a man as well in 1910!!!


http://www.musicofyesterday.com/hist...s_In_Music.php

How about we discuss this?

[Peter]

Interesting and it has cropped up here before on the forum, for example http://www.gyrix.com/forums/showthre...omen+composers

I don't entirely agree with Ernest Newman, after all from the financial perspective women didn't always have to work and would be supported by a husband - there are after all plenty of examples of great female performers, especially from the 19th and 20th centuries. I think it was more down to cultural attitudes that predominated.

[AeolianHarp]

The point is that they were not independent in ther own right and so would have had to ask permission for money from their husbands. Yes, they were allowed to be pianists but not composers. Even Clara Schumann came to believe that women "shouldn't" compose.

Here is another article which highlights the injustices done to Mozart's sister and Felix Mendelssohn's sister.

http://www.secularwoman.org/clara

[Peter]

The point is that they were not independent in ther own right and so would have had to ask permission for money from their husbands. Yes, they were allowed to be pianists but not composers. Even Clara Schumann came to believe that women "shouldn't" compose.

Here is another article which highlights the injustices done to Mozart's sister and Felix Mendelssohn's sister.

http://www.secularwoman.org/clara

Maybe, but I don't see why it would prevent composing, after all they had time for sewing and knitting! I think the reason is still as you say that 'women shouldn't compose', but of course some did. I'm trying to think of the name I've forgotten of a rather fine 19th century female composer who wrote symphonies similar in style to Mendelssohn - I'll post it when it comes to me!

[AeolianHarp]

Maybe, but I don't see why it would prevent composing, after all they had time for sewing and knitting! I think the reason is still as you say that 'women shouldn't compose', but of course some did. I'm trying to think of the name I've forgotten of a rather fine 19th century female composer who wrote symphonies similar in style to Mendelssohn - I'll post it when it comes to me!

I think you are missing the point that womens' lives were controlled largely by mens' at the time- they could only do what they were "allowed" to do! If Beethoven had been a woman the music would not be known. No offence to dear Beethoven meant of course.

Sewing- it is not a question of time to do it- this is what they were told to do to fill in the time- a seemly pursuit not creating passionate music and then having people go to see it- not allowed!!

[Peter]

I think you are missing the point that womens' lives were controleld largely by mens' at the time- they could only do what they were "allowed" to do! If Beethoven had been a woman the music would not be known. No offence to dear Beethoven meant of course.

No of course I understand that, not all women married though. I've remembered the name - Alice Mary Smith (1839-1884).

[Albert Gans]

I think I'll go with Aeolian on this one. Women were (and often still are) not considered equals to men. There were probably many women who initially were either composing or thinking of composing, but who then 'thought the better of it', when they noticed that men were not taking seriously what they were doing. It took (and unfortunately often still takes) a lot of courage, stamina and persistence for women to break through these glass ceilings. In a men's dominated world, it would have been very hard for any woman to break through this. Alma Mahler, certainly not the weakest of characters, had to give up her ambitions for her husband. And other examples were already given in this discussion. As for Alice Smyth you mention, Peter, how many people know her????

[Peter]

I think I'll go with Aeolian on this one. Women were (and often still are) not considered equals to men. There were probably many women who initially were either composing or thinking of composing, but who then 'thought the better of it', when they noticed that men were not taking seriously what they were doing. It took (and unfortunately often still takes) a lot of courage, stamina and persistence for women to break through these glass ceilings. In a men's dominated world, it would have been very hard for any woman to break through this. Alma Mahler, certainly not the weakest of characters, had to give up her ambitions for her husband. And other examples were already given in this discussion. As for Alice Smyth you mention, Peter, how many people know her????

Although I understand this perfectly of course, we musn't forget though that a composer such as Schubert for example also met with little recognition or financial reward, but was not deterred from composing. The fact that the music of Alice Smith, Pauline Viardot and Clara Schumann, (just to mention a few of the women who were prepared to break the mould) is little known is indeed down to chauvinistic attitudes.

[AeolianHarp]

No of course I understand that, not all women married though. I've remembered the name - Alice Mary Smith (1839-1884).

Sorry I missed your reference to Alice earlier-must check on you tube see if any of her music is there. Well if they were not married they were usually old spinsters living in a male relative's house (usually) with little financial independence.

[AeolianHarp]

I think I'll go with Aeolian on this one. Women were (and often still are) not considered equals to men. There were probably many women who initially were either composing or thinking of composing, but who then 'thought the better of it', when they noticed that men were not taking seriously what they were doing. It took (and unfortunately often still takes) a lot of courage, stamina and persistence for women to break through these glass ceilings. In a men's dominated world, it would have been very hard for any woman to break through this. Alma Mahler, certainly not the weakest of characters, had to give up her ambitions for her husband. And other examples were already given in this discussion. As for Alice Smyth you mention, Peter, how many people know her????

Right!! Read about Nannerl Mozart and Fanny Mendelssohn in my earlier link! Nannerl wrote a piece of music, which Wolfgang was seen to be playing by their father. He asked what it was and was told Nannerl had composed it, at which he promptly told Nannerl never to do again! How humiiated must she have felt?

Similar goes for Fanny Mendelssohn- she was told to stop composing by their father, but luckily for her, Felix supported her and helped her when they were adults and she got some music published. However it was not playing to a wide audience, only amongst small groups of friends privately.

Now I was wondering about Mahler's wife- I have read his note to her that she ought to be just there to be a wife to him and that should be her only concern! I always assumed she must have been meek to put up with that!

What a sexist Mahler was! I know times were different but he shows up worst than many at the time. Look at Beethoven- he cultivated many strong platonic friendships with women and loved to discuss music with them and taught them piano. He was also admiring of their pianistic abilities.

I tend to think if he had married and had a daughter who showed compositional promise that he'd have encouraged her, and been proud of her.

Yes, I had never heard of Alice Smith. I have just looked her up on wiki. Well, well , well she was British and was elected an honorary member of the Royal Academy of Music and had her works published and performed! This would never have happened in Vienna- the music scene was less controlled by the aristocracy here, and was more free. Still, I have never heard her music on Classic FM- nor that of any c.19th women, though they do play the music of the contemporary Debbie Wiseman and Phamie Gow.

[AeolianHarp]

Although I understand this perfectly of course, we musn't forget though that a composer such as Schubert for example also met with little recognition or financial reward, but was not deterred from composing. The fact that the music of Alice Smith, Pauline Viardot and Clara Schumann, (just to mention a few of the women who were prepared to break the mould) is little known is indeed down to chauvinistic attitudes.

Yes, poor Schubert didn't get the recognition he deserved during his lifetime, but as a man he had a freer life and was able to go out and do pretty much what he liked - unlike women. If he had not contracted syphilis and died so young, I think eventually he'd have got the recognition.

I have heard a scherzo by Clara Schumann and it has all the power and brilliance of her male contemporaries- just listening to it you would not know the gender of the composer.