Opus 2 n° 3

[Claudie MICAULT]

One of my man's student (talented) took this piece for his examination. It gave me the wish to study it again. I like the humour in the 1st mvt, It is like if B. was doing a joke, saying "I can do like Mozart but... I am Beethoven !"
And the second mvt, so deep in his simplicity....
What do you think about this sonata ?

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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
One of my man's student (talented) took this piece for his examination. It gave me the wish to study it again. I like the humour in the 1st mvt, It is like if B. was doing a joke, saying "I can do like Mozart but... I am Beethoven !"
And the second mvt, so deep in his simplicity....
What do you think about this sonata ?

Probably B's most conspicuously 'bravura' piece in my opinion. Lots of 'showing off' (if you can understand my meaning) in the first and last movements. This showing off works great on fortepianos but not on modern.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-07-2001).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
Probably B's most conspicuously bravura piece in my opinion. Lots of 'showing off' (if you can understand my meaning) in the first and last movements. This showing off works great on fortepianos but not on modern.

Indeed, it seems almost concerto-like in some parts of the outer movements.

The fortepiano? It might be a good place to set your glass of water so you can take a sip or two between playing movements on your modern pianoforte...

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 11-07-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:

The fortepiano? It might be a good place to set your glass of water so you can take a sip or two between playing movements on your modern pianoforte...

True, the European models make beautiful furniture (English ones rather too austere). But the music is too extreme for the modern piano, it is blatantly pushing a Walter or Schantz or Stein to its limits, but you cannot replicate this on a Steinway, the effect of all that keyboard bashing is too much on the much louder and thicker toned piano of today, yet if you restrain yourself there is loss of effect too. You can bash away till your heart's content on these old pianos, unless you break 'em that is!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

I so hate the sound of a fortepiano being pushed to its limits. It sounds as though the pianst is trying to get something out of the instrument that just isn't there. I think pulling back some on the fortepiano is required more than is observed by many pianists (who even bother with it at all).

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 11-08-2001).]

[Franz_Liszt]

About Beethoven's Sonata in C Major, Op. 2 No. 3.

It is a wonderful Sonata. I had a professor tell me one time it is always best to start with Beethoven's Op. 2 Sonatas as an introduction to his Sonatas. I have a friend studying this Sonata and I just love it. Most people think the first movement and third movement are showy. I love them, but I also love the second movement. It has some of the most beautiful passages.

I just thought I would post my small opinion and input in. Thanks.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
But the music is too extreme for the modern piano, it is blatantly pushing a Walter or Schantz or Stein to its limits, but you cannot replicate this on a Steinway, the effect of all that keyboard bashing is too much on the much louder and thicker toned piano of today, yet if you restrain yourself there is loss of effect too. You can bash away till your heart's content on these old pianos, unless you break 'em that is!

Surely Beethoven was pushing these instruments to their limits because he wasn't satisfied with them? Indeed his comment to Holz in 1826 'it is and remains an inadequate instrument' proves the point. Surely Beethoven's music itself played a part in the development of the modern piano?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Franz_Liszt:
Most people think the first movement and third movement are showy. I love them, but I also love the second movement. It has some of the most beautiful passages.

Well they are showy - 'the rattling of dishes at a Royal feast' in Wagner's words! but you are right to point out the wonderful E major adagio with that dramatic moment when the main theme returns in C major.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Surely Beethoven was pushing these instruments to their limits because he wasn't satisfied with them? Indeed his comment to Holz in 1826 'it is and remains an inadequate instrument' proves the point. Surely Beethoven's music itself played a part in the development of the modern piano?

I agree it seems Beethoven was not satisfied with the instrument of his day. I wonder what he would have thought of the evolution of pianos since then and also what would he have thought about our modern day pianos? Would he have thought them better? Worse? Or just different!

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree it seems Beethoven was not satisfied with the instrument of his day. I wonder what he would have thought of the evolution of pianos since then and also what would he have thought about our modern day pianos? Would he have thought them better? Worse? Or just different!

Joy

Who can say? There is the argument that regardless of which he preferred, had he had a modern piano he would have written differently for it. I don't think the differences would have been substantial and would largely have concerned pedalling. Despite the changes that occurred in the piano between 1800 and 1827, Beethoven actually declined from revising the early sonatas to take account of such changes.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Ahhh.....Op.2, no.3. The slow movement seems to anticipate the Moonlight adagio, the way it flows. The first mvt has an enormous exposition with a curiously relatively short development. and who could resist that last mvt? Beethoven showing off? Maybe, but what panache! All OTT Liszt-like excesses are carefully restrained as Beethoven shows his mastery of offering the full range of emotional expression just about within the confines of classical expectation. Just like in the finale of Op.1, no.3.

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by PDG:
Ahhh.....Op.2, no.3. The slow movement seems to anticipate the Moonlight adagio, the way it flows. The first mvt has an enormous exposition with a curiously relatively short development. and who could resist that last mvt? Beethoven showing off? Maybe, but what panache! All OTT Liszt-like excesses are carefully restrained as Beethoven shows his mastery of offering the full range of emotional expression just about within the confines of classical expectation. Just like in the finale of Op.1, no.3.

I feel very happy that this topic gave some interess... and I am reading with your post exactly what I fell myself about this sonata !



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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Surely Beethoven was pushing these instruments to their limits because he wasn't satisfied with them? Indeed his comment to Holz in 1826 'it is and remains an inadequate instrument' proves the point. Surely Beethoven's music itself played a part in the development of the modern piano?

It looks like you have conveniently forgotten everything I have said concerning the matter of Beethoven and the fortepiano over the last 2 or 3 years. If you and others want to regress the development of Beethoven interpretation back a decade or three that's fair enough but you know I for one will not take any of the resulting comments as serious or informed, things I was expecting this page to hopefully become the paragon of.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-10-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Ahhh.....Op.2, no.3. The slow movement seems to anticipate the Moonlight adagio, the way it flows. The first mvt has an enormous exposition with a curiously relatively short development. and who could resist that last mvt? Beethoven showing off? Maybe, but what panache! All OTT Liszt-like excesses are carefully restrained as Beethoven shows his mastery of offering the full range of emotional expression just about within the confines of classical expectation. Just like in the finale of Op.1, no.3.

I suggest there is no comparision between the nature of the 'barn-storming' in the finale of no1 compared to the nature of that found in no3. No Beethoven piece before or after no3 is composed in quite such a manner. It makes me wonder if B was actually encouraged by some external influence (or indeed competitor) to produce a 'bravura' piece on this occasion, for he lated commented that it was not his taste to produce such music.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 11-10-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree it seems Beethoven was not satisfied with the instrument of his day. I wonder what he would have thought of the evolution of pianos since then and also what would he have thought about our modern day pianos? Would he have thought them better? Worse? Or just different!

Joy

Well, he was more positive about these instruments in his youger days, saying the manufacturers were lining up to provide him with pianos built to his (B's) specification. In 1796 (or thereabouts) he was happy to praise Streichers pianos. I can tell you for sure B's taste was very Viennese in that he preferred pianos with the lightest of actions. The Viennese model was already perfected long before B's death and was the norm in Vienna for at least 3 decades after his death. So how far ahead do people think B was thinking?! The only apparent flaw in the design was its tendancy need continuous attention or repair. But this is a problem with pianos per se even today. It is this factor I believe B was concerned about with the 1826 quote, not particularly the nature of the sound, for he was totally unable to hear any piano by 1826.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin