Beethoven, publishers and opus numbers.

[Chris]

Yes but I'm not convinced it was as major a thing as the historians and anecdotes like to tell us - I can't believe the 'jealousy story'. I'm sure Haydn advised Beethoven purely from a practical point of view, Beethoven obviously disagreed but only I think with Haydn's judgement rather than motive. After all what motive could Haydn have had? He simply wasn't a jealous man and was actually pretty humble.

I agree. I'm sure Haydn was not jealous, and it's hard to believe Beethoven would think so. Though it seems possible he might have said so in a moment of anger, without really meaning it.

[Peter]

Yes, he did, and he had a disagreement about it with his teacher, Haydn. A declaration indeed!

Yes but I'm not convinced it was as major a thing as the historians and anecdotes like to tell us - I can't believe the 'jealousy story'. I'm sure Haydn advised Beethoven purely from a practical point of view, Beethoven obviously disagreed but only I think with Haydn's judgement rather than motive. After all what motive could Haydn have had? He simply wasn't a jealous man and was actually pretty humble.

[Enrique]

I'm sure it must have risen in Germany. Well, thank you for your nice posts.

[Chris]

It dates back to the 17th century, I believe, but of course its usage was not consistent.

[Enrique]

OK. So, from when does the practice of assigning op. numbers, i.e., the composer doing it, date in Germany/Austria.

[Chris]

I know Haydn pointed to no 3 with some mistrust, it was too somber for him. But the disagreement was about them publishing as op.1?

Haydn advised him not to include No. 3 in the Op. 1 publication, on the grounds that it would be poorly received because it was too challenging a work to hear.

[Enrique]

I know Haydn pointed to no 3 with some mistrust, it was too somber for him. But the disagreement was about them publishing as op.1?

[Chris]

Another question, more concrete, and the one that motivated this post, is "did Beethoven gave the famous three piano trios the op. number 1?". If so, this was a declaration!

Yes, he did, and he had a disagreement about it with his teacher, Haydn. A declaration indeed!

[Enrique]

I know the opus numbers in Beethoven's catalog were mostly assigned by he himself. In fact, I do not precisely know it, so this is a question. When posterity tried to make a catalog of his works, they used WoO numbers for those works without opus number (or unpublished works?).

In a book about the nine symphonies I read: "However the maestro, sometimes, in order to satisfy impending exigences from editors, or in the urgent necessity of procuring himself resources, published, ciphered as "opus", much later than they had been composed, some of those essays" (free translation). So he really numerated his works!? How great the conscience of being an artist must have been already by this time.

Another question, more concrete, and the one that motivated this post, is "did Beethoven gave the famous three piano trios the op. number 1?". If so, this was a declaration!