Beethoven's violin concerto.

[Enrique]

I do not hear a lot about the concerti written by Beethoven, and I only mean the five for piano and the one for the violin. May be becouse the concerti are generally written for the exhibition of one person, and hence gives prominence to one instrument among all others and a symphony is a more balanced, more austere work. Perhaps the concerto is effectist, it looks for the effect. But how about the effect got by the first bars of Beethoven's violin concerto. Has someone in BSR had something to say about those four timpani strokes (actually five) followed by that sweetest of themes and yet so classical in symmetry. Think in how many works Beethoven begins by settling the tempo, I mean a brief but unequivocal way of setting it up. Examples, besides this work, are the Eroica, the Fifth, and many others.

Tempo and rhythm are not the same, of course, for I can play these few bars I am see right now once allegro and another time lento, but the rhythm will be the same. Now music has three elements of principles: the horizontal, the vertical, and rhythm. Then if the tempo is an element of all pieces of music (but I'm not sure about this), then we have to put it into the category rhythm.

If all this sounds pedantic I beg your pardon, guys. My intention is no other than to postulate the following: of the three principles, the rhythmic one is the most important, a consideration that shakes hands with the fact that music must have begun by being just some rhythmic patterns. And because of this primordiality of rhythm, it is that such opening bars as those of the violin concerto are so striking.

On second thoughts, I did not care about any postulate, but yes, I was trying to make plausible the idea that Beethoven's concerto is one of the most, if not the most, beautiful violin concerti ever written. And, yes, I'm telling this to some people who must have discovered this truth long before I did. It's Beethoven's damnation: to make us talk about ourselves.

--Hey, boy, couldn't you be plainer in the expression of your thoughts? You are not writing a book, you know?
--I do. If you like it, that's fine. If you don't, please do not ask me to change.

EDIT: if someone cares to read this, I know he'll come forward to defend (excuse my English) Brahms' concerto. I heard it many times and still prefer Beethoven's althogh Brahms' is superb, like everything he did.

[Sorrano]

Personally, I do prefer Beethoven's to Brahm's. Something you might be interested in is the piano version of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, if not for anything else, at least for the cadenza in the first movement. For its time I believe it was quite the novel approach for the use of timpani.

It's been a long while since I've heard the first movement of the Violin Concerto, so maybe it's a good time to take another look, especially in regards to what you mentioned of the opening timpani strokes.

[Enrique]

Yes, in all the movement, be it the timpani of the chords in the strings in just the same roll, you can "hear" a pulsation. To put it above Brahms' is to put it very high, in the particular case of the violin concerto, of course. So I'm glad you have a good concept of it. But trust me in this, you'll hear many people say they prefer Brahms', if you have not already, when the thing is that they are afraid to say they like Beethoven. But let's not talk about snobs in this site where people speak with there hearts. Good day to you, Sir.

[Sorrano]

This evening I might get a chance to listen to the Beethoven concerto, at least the first movement, so I will listen for that pulse. Thanks for bringing this up!

[Chris]

I definitely prefer Beethoven's to Brahms'. I might prefer Tchaikovsky's to Beethoven's, though!

[Enrique]

I do not know what the noun is corresponding to the action of batting palms, but it is what I am doing!

[Sorrano]

I do not know what the noun is corresponding to the action of batting palms, but it is what I am doing!

Are you referring to clapping?

[Enrique]

Oops, the power went off. Yes, precisely.

[Sorrano]

Just listened to the first movement of the Violin Concerto and I do see what you mean by the pulse. Interesting enough what Beethoven did with that rhythm, but it foreshadowed a work with a slightly higher Opus number (VC is Op. 61) and emphasized a different four note motif that would become the most famous four notes in music: the 5th Symphony, Op. 67.

[Enrique]

Your's is a keen observation. It's amazing how the mind of a great composer works. Particularly Beethoven whose "modus operandi" was the development of relative unimportant thematic material. His brain seemed like a machine whose input is some theme and then this is subjected to all kinds of transformations, until something new and novel comes at the output.

So with the concerto he was taking some vacations. Or rather he was preparing for the great enterprise. If you like op.61, and you say you have heard it many times and do like it, follow my advice and get yourself the printed score. You'll find it extremely easy to follow the music with the score. Then tell me about some passage remarkable in your opinion and pass me the bar number. And we'll see if we agree. I can tell you before hand the section beginning at bar 298 and ending with the next tutti (1st mov) is, if someone asks me, one of the high points of the concerto.

EDIT:
Much easier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7xJFh7yar8
The passage I say begins at 11:40 and ends with the tutti.

[Sorrano]

You will need to give me some time on this one; my listening time is rather limited.

[Enrique]

You can take all the time you need, Sorrano. Beethoven will wait for you.

[Tony John Hearne]

I definitely prefer Beethoven's to Brahms'. I might prefer Tchaikovsky's to Beethoven's, though!

The last movement of Beethoven has it (whatever 'it' is) for me but I still reserve a special place in my affections for the Elgar which seems always to ponder unfathomable depths. Say what you will about him but the Nigel Kennedy version form the Proms a couple of years ago (can be found in its totality on You Tube) gets closest to whatever 'it' is. I read one review which refers to Kennedy's playing as “lacerating” which seems to explain it

[Roehre]

Just listened to the first movement of the Violin Concerto and I do see what you mean by the pulse. Interesting enough what Beethoven did with that rhythm, but it foreshadowed a work with a slightly higher Opus number (VC is Op. 61) and emphasized a different four note motif that would become the most famous four notes in music: the 5th Symphony, Op. 67.

apart from the sonata-4-hands opus 6, the pom-pom-pom-poooooom occurs at least five times melodically between opus 57 and 74:
the sonata appassionata op.57
the 4th piano concerto op.58
the violin concerto op.61 and
the 5th symphony op.67,
and slightly later in the "Harp"-quartet opus 74.

In the sketch books the sketches are linked, though not necessarily interspersed a lot.

[Sorrano]

Also, in the WoO 48 (Rondo in C) there is another foreshadowing of those famous 4 notes. I wonder if, in some way, this proved an earlier "sketch" of what was to come?