A World Without Beethoven

[Peter]

Well yes, pleasure certainly, why on earth would you think I don't? But "pleasure" is a complex issue...

Your pleasure seems to be in making things complex when really they are quite simple!

[Quijote]

5...]I'm glad you get something out of music even if you are unable to specify exactly what - pleasure might be a start!

Well yes, pleasure certainly, why on earth would you think I don't? But "pleasure" is a complex issue...

[EternaLisa]

It's alive because people love it. And people love it because it is great.

EXACTLY.

Incredible article that completely misses the point

Incredible to me because it's so full of contradictions-apparently someone just wanted a little face-time with an audience.

Well, oki-dokie-smokie



If we're gonna roll over Beethoven, let's get into the right groove, put a little work into it and quit fiddling around with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmCyL9zgL0o

As they used to say in the Progressive Music 70's: Git down everybody--Beethoven was the leading Progressive Edge to the first Rock Music--why do ya think they call him "The Heavy Metal Composer"

Cheeri-oh!

Forever Eternalisa

[Peter]

I am not laying that at Beethoven's feet, and where is this total dissonance? This is just a term you are employing, and has little meaning beyond the WAM harmony/counterpoint treatises. You know as well as I do that the tritone was considered "diabolic" centuries ago, but today such a simple interval is really quite trite, and handled accordingly.

What do I get out of listening to music? Well, certainly something. My point was that the term "spiritual" (that others confuse with "transcendental") is used unthinkingly.

I'm not saying you were blaming Beethoven, but the article is ridiculous to suggest that the world would be better off without Beethoven because it would appreciate modern music better. As to the general canon that you referred to in an earlier post, well looking at the proms season this year I'd say it was pretty diverse and Michael made the point that Beethoven was actually rather poorly represented!

I'm glad you get something out of music even if you are unable to specify exactly what - pleasure might be a start! The term 'spiritual' clearly means different things to people - I suppose aside from any religious connotation (which to atheists will always seem like 'drivel') it is used for something that we think of as deep and moves us on a personal level.

[Quijote]

Yes but why lay the blame at Beethoven's feet for that (as the article suggests)? Why are the waters 'less welcoming'? Obviously the argument in the article implies as you do that the whole of western output up to the 20th century is somehow responsible for perverting the ears of today's listeners - unable to appreciate the finer glories of ugliness and total dissonance that we are now presented with today. An ugliness that we are confronted with daily in our lives in the hideous architecture that has disfigured many of our towns and cities, the wanton destruction of our natural environments, corruption, violence etc..

In your many responses to Preston on spirituality of which you are unsurprisingly dismissive I wonder what on earth you actually get out of listening to music? That to many Beethoven's music is uplifting and does add a very necessary 'spiritual' dimension to their lives shouldn't be so condescendingly dismissed as 'drivel' - I sense too much empathy with Bazarov!

I am not laying that at Beethoven's feet, and where is this total dissonance? This is just a term you are employing, and has little meaning beyond the WAM harmony/counterpoint treatises. You know as well as I do that the tritone was considered "diabolic" centuries ago, but today such a simple interval is really quite trite, and handled accordingly.

What do I get out of listening to music? Well, certainly something. My point was that the term "spiritual" (that others confuse with "transcendental") is used unthinkingly.

[Quijote]

I must point out that I never used the word "always" - an important distinction.

Very well, the adverbial distiction "always" is duly noted. Look, I am in no doubt that Beethoven is one of the greatest composers who ever walked this earth, and I am extremely grateful that he ever existed. However, "greatness" alone does not explain how such a figure arose, and to suggest uncritically that "cream will rise to the top" ignores the mechanisms that ensure this; mechanisms that even today prevent the "rise" of obscure composers who (for some reason or other) have fell by the wayside. Who "rediscovered" Bach years after his death? Were it not for Felix, Bach would today be a composer known only to crusty musicologists (hah!) poring over dusty manuscripts.

[Chris]

What also annoyed me about Chris's bland dictum ("Cream always rises to the top") was its uncritical assumption of how canonical status is conferred.

I must point out that I never used the word "always" - an important distinction.

[Preston]

I did want to add something to Philip's comment about the poverty and sadness in the world.

Not long ago, I watched a video on homelessness and a large portion of the people who were homeless felt they had a purpose in life. I think that is interesting. I have also noticed a lot of the poorest people in the world believe in some kind of deity. Not all, but a lot. When speaking of all the terror in the world it does seem all bad, but a lot of people living in 3rd world countries, poverty, tribal environments, etc. still find great peace and enjoyment in life.

Though also, a lot of people cannot find enjoyment in life and this is no doubt a beyond terribly saddening thing. I don't know the answers, but for me, I try to live as honest of a life as I can. What I now do when I think of things like the severe suffering is tell myself there are things you do not know and cannot understand.

This universe is no doubt a mystery, and yes, I believe there are powers at work that only few have even ever started to comprehend. The people I am aware of and I think of though am not sure who tapped into this sacred world are: Pythagoras, Gautama Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus of Nazareth, Beethoven, etc. I find it absolutely fascinating which is why I attempt () to learn about these individuals.

Please read about Pythagoras and the Tetractys - it is as mysterious as this world and beyond.

[Peter]

No, this is not the point, as far as I read it. The choice is there, to be sure; but how many will "dip their toes" in waters that are seemingly less welcoming?
What also annoyed me about Chris's bland dictum ("Cream always rises to the top") was its uncritical assumption of how canonical status is conferred.

Yes but why lay the blame at Beethoven's feet for that (as the article suggests)? Why are the waters 'less welcoming'? Obviously the argument in the article implies as you do that the whole of western output up to the 20th century is somehow responsible for perverting the ears of today's listeners - unable to appreciate the finer glories of ugliness and total dissonance that we are now presented with today. An ugliness that we are confronted with daily in our lives in the hideous architecture that has disfigured many of our towns and cities, the wanton destruction of our natural environments, corruption, violence etc..

In your many responses to Preston on spirituality of which you are unsurprisingly dismissive I wonder what on earth you actually get out of listening to music? That to many Beethoven's music is uplifting and does add a very necessary 'spiritual' dimension to their lives shouldn't be so condescendingly dismissed as 'drivel' - I sense too much empathy with Bazarov!

[Preston]

Is it? I could imagine many ways it could be far, far worse. What other world is there for us to compare it to? The world is the world. There is good in it and there is bad in it. Let's not lose ourselves to negativity!

I was referring to the individual life, kind of once it happens to one it happens to all - all for one and one for all. Though, this is too much for me and now to post something that I find comfort in on the GD forum, 8-).

Amen to not losing ourselves to negativity or horror, ! Quite frankly I cannot take anymore of it! And amen to peace and comfort!

[Chris]

Yes, the suffering in the world is as bad as it could be...

Is it? I could imagine many ways it could be far, far worse. What other world is there for us to compare it to? The world is the world. There is good in it and there is bad in it. Let's not lose ourselves to negativity!

[Quijote]

Philip, you brought it up. You even quoted yourself to bring it back up in a more presentable way. So this is where I get confused?

Did I? Good Lord, I'm confused.

[Quijote]

So, if I may return to the title of this thread (A World Without Beethoven), I'm a lot calmer now, thank you. Gosh, I haven't gotten off my stool like that for a long time, so I must thank Michael for stirring up my own personal hornets' nest.
Anyway, if I may approach the subject from a more rational viewpoint, there are a couple of points I'd like to make.
One : Even in our own western society, there is a huge swathe of the population that has never experienced the "joys" of Beethoven. There is then, a large part of the "world" that is "without Beethoven". Does (or will) this change anything? No, I think, is the simple answer.
Two : Er, that's it. Thank you for your attention.

[Preston]

And then you come along and ask me what I find (or not) to be spiritual in music.

Philip, you brought it up. You even quoted yourself to bring it back up in a more presentable way. So this is where I get confused?

I admit it seems there is absolutely no omnipotent being. Yes, the suffering in the world is as bad as it could be - like being torchered ruthlessly for life, locked in prisons for life, holes drilled in brains causing people (the same as you or I) to be completely gone and perhaps in great pain. This world is a madhouse, especially when looked at as a whole. Though I believe there are forces and magic in this world we cannot even begin to slightly comprehend.

That is only my opinion.

Anyway, I would like to say a prayer:
May the divine powers help us all? We need it oh so deeply, far more than we can ever know.

[Preston]

Preston, in order to define what one might feel as spiritual in music or any other art or media, it would be useful for an agreement on what the term means. I might be moved deeply (is this spirituality?) upon reading a score (the music being played in my head) or while listening to it. Another person in the same situation will respond differently and not feel anything in particular. Hence, whatever spiritual experience that one obtains listening is more likely going to be a product of that person's own experiences and culture. Philip has excellent points and maybe we need to further define or label this term spirituality.

I can't define spirituality, ! I believe that when one has one thought that provides them with a more enlightened thought that it is a spiritual thing. I guess one could say if a person was wholly spiritual they would have achieved Nirvana.

Really, I don't know how to properly define spirituality, I don't know if it can and if it was it would be a very diverse (and long, so long) definition, and anything but a "black and white" perception.

I believe that feelings play a large part in being spiritual. In fact, I believe that is the entire basis of spirituality - to have more pure feelings. Though the question is, what are purer feelings? What are sinful feelings? Etc.