A World Without Beethoven

[Preston]

May I continue? (Administrators, please delete all these postings if you consider them irrelevant). I spent a year in India some years ago, that country that so many Anglo Saxons consider a "spiritual" country. What rot! I met so many well-off cretins that were there to "discover themselves", to find some "meaning" to their lives, futilely searching for some "product" they called "spirituality". That was the point, they considered "spirituality" as a product that coud be somehow acquired (read "purchased") in a few days, weeks, or months. They visited monasteries in the Himalayas where monks would hold a low B (two octaves below middle C) for long lengths of time and were amazed. Oh yeah? Big deal. So who washed their robes, prepared their food and sluiced out their latrines?
And India is spiritual? A great majority of the population live in abject poverty, and think no further than what can fill their bellies on a given day. And children die in their dozens. Where is their notion of "spirituality"? I find the term so obscene as to be nauseous. And then you come along and ask me what I find (or not) to be spiritual in music.

Yes, the world as a whole is very very very disturbing, I agree. That is the reason I have great trouble believing in an omnipotent being - but then I always tell myself that I do not know the answers and mysteries of divine powers, at all! Blind faith is what I wonder about, I don't understand it?

Though, the people you speak of, it sounds like are most likely, greed-filled, lust-filled, vain, and hateful people doing it as a cliche - not the great mystics and sages of the past, !

[Quijote]

And Michael, you are not particularly hungry. Good for you.

[Sorrano]

Preston, in order to define what one might feel as spiritual in music or any other art or media, it would be useful for an agreement on what the term means. I might be moved deeply (is this spirituality?) upon reading a score (the music being played in my head) or while listening to it. Another person in the same situation will respond differently and not feel anything in particular. Hence, whatever spiritual experience that one obtains listening is more likely going to be a product of that person's own experiences and culture. Philip has excellent points and maybe we need to further define or label this term spirituality.

[Quijote]

Michael is the poster who launched this thread called "A World Without Beethoven". Well, there is a whole load of "world" out there for whom there is indeed no Beethoven whatsoever, and even - even - if they hear him (the poor illiterate Tamil or Nepalese or whoever) by chance on some tourist's MP3 player or possibly their own sound system will hear a bunch of sound events (to reduce the phenomena to an absurd level, but a physically true one) that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. Please, all of you, spare me this drivel.

[Quijote]

May I continue? (Administrators, please delete all these postings if you consider them irrelevant). I spent a year in India some years ago, that country that so many Anglo Saxons consider a "spiritual" country. What rot! I met so many well-off cretins that were there to "discover themselves", to find some "meaning" to their lives, futilely searching for some "product" they called "spirituality". That was the point, they considered "spirituality" as a product that coud be somehow acquired (read "purchased") in a few days, weeks, or months. They visited monasteries in the Himalayas where monks would hold a low B (two octaves below middle C) for long lengths of time and were amazed. Oh yeah? Big deal. So who washed their robes, prepared their food and sluiced out their latrines?
And India is spiritual? A great majority of the population live in abject poverty, and think no further than what can fill their bellies on a given day. And children die in their dozens. Where is their notion of "spirituality"? I find the term so obscene as to be nauseous. And then you come along and ask me what I find (or not) to be spiritual in music.

[Preston]

Philip your comments strike me as raving questions, much like mine probably strike you as foolish. Spirituality, imo, is a diverse and general term and it must be approached so. What I consider spirituality mostly relates to precise and/or pure feelings. I am a firm believer in good and evil - I have based a large portion of my life around it. I believe there is a lot of waste and sin - evil - in this world and that the good (whatever it may be?) is becoming less and less. I think you might see differently? Such as, denying the existence of "pure and sin" and taking an atheists stance?

Either way, yes I believe there was/is spiritual music written by spiritual people. What do you think about Beethoven's "Thank you from a convalescent to the Godhead"?

[Quijote]

So, if we accept my "argument" above, it is culturally-dependent, if not technically so. Hardly "spiritual", if I understand the term.

[Quijote]

And just a quick thought : would someone from another culture (e.g. an illiterate Tamil, from south India) necessarily "hear" or "feel" the spirituality you refer to in WAM (western art music)? It can't be universal then, surely?

[Quijote]

I really don't know. I just hear a lot of "talking heads" bandying about terms that strike me as meaningless.

[Quijote]

Or if not, this "spiritual" thingie is floating around in some sort of Platonic parallel ("ideal") universe just waiting to be tapped into?

[Quijote]

I mean, if you have the Prelude from one of JSB's 'cello Suites in front of you and you only play the guitar I imagine the "holy spirit" is pretty dead, so to speak?

[Quijote]

Or is "spirituality" dependent on technique?

[Quijote]

Or rather, when you place the score of the Hammerklavier in front of me and I begin to play it very badly and hammer my way through it very badly, will you find it "spiritual"? Or perhaps you will find it more "spiritual" when Brendel plays it? Or perhaps even when you "read" it yourself in your mind's ear? Is its "spirituality" inherent in the printed page?

[Quijote]

Perhaps I misunderstand you, though are you saying that you do not believe there is spirituality in any music since the beginning of music (give or take)? Also, are you saying that you do not believe music can be a spiritual thing?

No idea, Preston. Is it in the score?

[Preston]

...the ridiculous term "spirituality" in music.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, though are you saying that you do not believe there is spirituality in any music since the beginning of music (give or take)? Also, are you saying that you do not believe music can be a spiritual thing?