Great Eroica recordings

[Peter]

Does anyone have Celibidache's live Munich recording of the Eroica which is apparently highly acclaimed? I haven't heard it myself - the finest recording I have of it I think is Szell's 1957 version with the Cleveland.

[Peter]

Obviously it's quite a rarity! Celibidache is a pretty unknown and forgotten figure here in the UK and his Beethoven is rather controversial but his Eroica is said to be superb. Does anyone have any other great Eroica recommendations?

[Megan]

Obviously it's quite a rarity! Celibidache is a pretty unknown and forgotten figure here in the UK and his Beethoven is rather controversial but his Eroica is said to be superb. Does anyone have any other great Eroica recommendations?

I am putting my feelers out on other CM forums, see what I can come up with.

[Chris]

I would have mentioned Szell's, but it seems you already know that one. I also like Zinman's, but I think you are familiar with his cycle too.

[Megan]

Well, I have found this version. By, Jordi Savall, Le Concert Des Nations.

[Peter]

Well, I have found this version. By, Jordi Savall, Le Concert Des Nations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXAU...h_response_rev

Yes I have that one Megan and it is very interestiong based as it is on the forces available to Beethoven for the Lobkowitz performance - much detail and clarity of parts is evident. However, (superbly performed as it is) it is also the case that at the later Theater an Der Wien performance, larger forces were used which is perhaps a warning to taking HIP too seriously? Personally I prefer a fuller sound for this powerful symphony.

[Roehre]

Yes I have that one Megan and it is very interestiong based as it is on the forces available to Beethoven for the Lobkowitz performance - much detail and clarity of parts is evident. However, (superbly performed as it is) it is also the case that at the later Theater an Der Wien performance, larger forces were used which is perhaps a warning to taking HIP too seriously? Personally I prefer a fuller sound for this powerful symphony.

There is much to say for a HIP performance like this one of Jordi Savall's, or the one featuring on the BBC's Eroica DVD (Orchestre etc/JE Gardiner), especially regarding the better audibility of many details and the greater clarity. But I share Peter's preference for a more meaty, fuller sound for this work.
The recent LSO/Haitink performance/recording for me combines the best of these two worlds here

[Peter]

There is much to say for a HIP performance like this one of Jordi Savall's, or the one featuring on the BBC's Eroica DVD (Orchestre etc/JE Gardiner), especially regarding the better audibility of many details and the greater clarity. But I share Peter's preference for a more meaty, fuller sound for this work.
The recent LSO/Haitink performance/recording for me combines the best of these two worlds here

Yes I agree Roehre - I'm certainly not against HIP - I think it has provided an invaluable service to music in recent decades and the Saval recording is superb, though I wonder if the Lobkowitz musicians performed the work as well as that! The implication given though is that those are the ideal forces and how Beethoven would have wished it, yet as I said the later public performance at the Theater an der Wien consisted of larger forces. Mozart is also known to have wished for larger forces than were available to him, so there is a danger of HIP interpreting performance practice of the time too literally. Vibrato is another example and wonder what you think of Norrington's attitude towards this? Regarding Haitink, thank you yes I had forgotten this - would you recommend his complete Beethoven symphonies?

[Roehre]

..Vibrato is another example and wonder what you think of Norrington's attitude towards this? Regarding Haitink, thank you yes I had forgotten this - would you recommend his complete Beethoven symphonies?

I am not convinced at all that vibrato is something that developed sometime during the 19th/early 20th century (as Norrington assumes, see his Mahler 9).
Having said that, the colours emanating from vibrato-less string playing are a world in themselves, worth exploring therefore.

What caught me in the LSO/Haitink cycle is the progress/increase of influence of HIP-thinking in the non-fundamentally-HIP performing practice.
It really is a revelation to compare the 1970s Concertgebouw/Haitink Beethoven-cycle (or the 1960s Jochum/concertgebouw, quite similar to Haitink's from a decade later) with the recent LSO-cycle.
1 and 2 obviously are approached much more transparantly, but e.g. the scherzo in 9 wins greatly in that respect too, not the least because of the timpanist's use of lighter sticks. But the overall result is still a beefy Beethoven, but in a definitely leaner approach than 3 decades ago.
The symphony which IMO wins most, is the Pastoral.
I like my Beethoven that way.

[Peter]

I am not convinced at all that vibrato is something that developed sometime during the 19th/early 20th century (as Norrington assumes, see his Mahler 9).
Having said that, the colours emanating from vibrato-less string playing are a world in themselves, worth exploring therefore.

What caught me in the LSO/Haitink cycle is the progress/increase of influence of HIP-thinking in the non-fundamentally-HIP performing practice.
It really is a revelation to compare the 1970s Concertgebouw/Haitink Beethoven-cycle (or the 1960s Jochum/concertgebouw, quite similar to Haitink's from a decade later) with the recent LSO-cycle.
1 and 2 obviously are approached much more transparantly, but e.g. the scherzo in 9 wins greatly in that respect too, not the least because of the timpanist's use of lighter sticks. But the overall result is still a beefy Beethoven, but in a definitely leaner approach than 3 decades ago.
The symphony which IMO wins most, is the Pastoral.
I like my Beethoven that way.

Yes I'm sure you're right about vibrato and I think Norrington simply reacted to the excesses of the late 19th/early 20th century interpretations. Would you rate Haitink's Pastoral above that of Bohm?

[Roehre]

Would you rate Haitink's Pastoral above that of Bohm?

No, but it comes near. Böhm/VPO is my first choice.
Why? One example: finale, bars 117-140 (Böhm 4'11"-5'04", haven't got the Haitink at hand unfortunately), listen to the little pizzicato phrase in the 2nd violins (p), and then to the development of it through the 1st violins (arco) + violas (pizz), followed by its ff-peroration in the horns. You hardly ever hear this detail as clear as here in Böhm's recording, and appreciated by the conductor as one continuous phrase.
Haitink is not bad at all, but IMO doesn't think of this passage as one single phrase.