Freedom in Musical Form

[Sorrano]

There is a valid point, too, of exploring new music from "obscure" composers, as well as music of different styles. As a lover of food I would not spend my lifetime exploring the various styles and types of curries, but would dabble in all other kinds of foods. I pity those who limit their tastes (both food and music) so that they only see a small part of the vast whole. In the early morning hours I catch a bit of WFMT Radio that is piped through the local classical music station here and often they present many composers and pieces with which I am unfamiliar. (Sometimes the lists remind of Roehre's listening list.) I may not necessarily like everything that I hear, but at least I experienced it and that is the joy of music for me.

[Peter]

Oh, yes. Op. 54 is the ugly duckling of the piano sonatas. The second movement is quite unlike any other piano piece by Beethoven. I suppose you could describe it, anachronistically, as a toccata?

Possibly the finale of Op.26 comes closest?

[Peter]

There is a valid point, too, of exploring new music from "obscure" composers, as well as music of different styles. As a lover of food I would not spend my lifetime exploring the various styles and types of curries, but would dabble in all other kinds of foods. I pity those who limit their tastes (both food and music) so that they only see a small part of the vast whole. In the early morning hours I catch a bit of WFMT Radio that is piped through the local classical music station here and often they present many composers and pieces with which I am unfamiliar. (Sometimes the lists remind of Roehre's listening list.) I may not necessarily like everything that I hear, but at least I experienced it and that is the joy of music for me.

Yes I'm not suggesting shutting our ears to anything outside the comfort zone. However I think after decades of listening to music I know what interests me most and naturally I have explored that in far greater depth. Of course a varied diet is necessary but exploring the obscure doesn't necessarily have to mean only the contemporary - there is much fine music from Perotin, Josquin and Renaissance composers for example.

[Sorrano]

Also, when exploring the lesser known works of the favorite composers, it is useful to explore the contemporaries of said composers. Peter, you had a thread going regarding the contemporaries of Beethoven, and in order to understand better the music of Beethoven it is necessary to understand what was going on in the music and historical world at that time.

[Peter]

Also, when exploring the lesser known works of the favorite composers, it is useful to explore the contemporaries of said composers. Peter, you had a thread going regarding the contemporaries of Beethoven, and in order to understand better the music of Beethoven it is necessary to understand what was going on in the music and historical world at that time.

Yes of course context is important but I wouldn't spend my time investigating the music of say Czerny in quite the same depth as I would Beethoven - if complete recordings of say Forster or Czerny's works were available would you buy them? Clementi and Dussek are other examples of composers whose sonatas are useful to know because they had a direct influence on Beethoven and some of them are quite fine, but the point is that for me Beethoven remains the focus and these other minor composers are of limited interest.

[Sorrano]

Well, I would love to get the complete works of some of these composers. Kuhlau comes to mind readily, as I have quite liked everything of his I have heard so far. I am always looking for new experiences in music (and food) and enjoy very much exploring the uncommon when I have the chance. I realize that I may not like everything that I find, but it's the joy of the exploration and thrill of personal uncharted territory that drives me. Incidentally, with both food and music I have not found a lot that I find unpalatable.

[Michael]

But foreshadowing the 2nd mvt of the 5th symphony.

The opening of the first movement of Opus 54 does indeed sound a bit like the symphony's second movement.
It also sounds a bit like the "Andante Favori" for a few bars and then it goes off the wall.

[Megan]

Well, I would love to get the complete works of some of these composers. Kuhlau comes to mind readily, as I have quite liked everything of his I have heard so far. I am always looking for new experiences in music (and food) and enjoy very much exploring the uncommon when I have the chance. I realize that I may not like everything that I find, but it's the joy of the exploration and thrill of personal uncharted territory that drives me. Incidentally, with both food and music I have not found a lot that I find unpalatable.

I find Jazz unpalatable. All that harsh sounding toot-tootles, barbalas, strange didlde-eepeeps, and skiddle de screech trumpet vomit nonsense. Sounds like car horns angrily bibbing in a traffic jam.

[Quijote]

I find Jazz unpalatable. All that harsh sounding toot-tootles, barbalas, strange didlde-eepeeps, and skiddle de screech trumpet vomit nonsense. Sounds like car horns angrily bibbing in a traffic jam.

Well, I suppose it does depend on the sort of jazz one listens to. I am not a jazz fan especially, and I must admit it is one musical genre that I can happily accept to listen to as background music during a dinner party. Apart from that, I do find that the usual "jazz combo" provides a timbre (I mean the sound of the ensemble) I find disagreeable, but that is a question of personal (and probably ignorant) taste.

[Quijote]

So, the infamous quote by Susan McClary has produced its fair share of polemic since it first appeared in “Getting Down Off the Beanstalk” in the Minnesota Composer’s Forum Newsletter, February 1987. Imagine that, an article nearly 24 years old and still a thorn in people’s hides. Wonderful!
What’s it to be? Are certain passages in Beethoven’s Ninth to be taken as erupting volcanoes (now there’s a phallic symbol, if ever I saw one), raging impotent rapists, an illustration of imperial splendour or a picnic down by the lake? Or just “music”? Nobody can answer these questions, because they are subjective interpretations. Why though has McClary’s essay generated so much rancour? Is it because it raises sex (although of an unhealthy, unwelcome and deviant sort) in music? Or is it the usual sort of “Hands off our icon Beethoven!” reaction?
I would like to attempt a summary of the Robert Fink essay I mentioned above (Beethoven Antihero: Sex, Violence, and the Aesthetics of Failure, or Listening to the Ninth Symphony as Postmodern Sublime), but I wonder if it will be a worthwhile exercise. We must be careful if we choose to stray out of the comfort zone, for out there are dragons …

[Quijote]

... or rather in the parlance of early geographers : "here be dragons".
I have never understood how the infinitive "be" can be used in such a context. Or is that a "subjunctive"? I look to the professional English teachers on this forum for an explanation.

[Quijote]

... But none is forthcoming. So, I suppose another 94-page monologue is expected?

[Quijote]

I have decided to delete my own post. I put in too many double entendres even for my taste!

Shame you did that, Michael. Let me see if my memory serves me well : your general idea was that "music" cannot "convey" anything beyond the notes. Would that be a fair summary?

[Michael]

Shame you did that, Michael. Let me see if my memory serves me well : your general idea was that "music" cannot "convey" anything beyond the notes. Would that be a fair summary?

Yes. No.

[Quijote]

Well, back to sex then. Here's a little quote for you from my recent reading of back issues of The Bruckner Journal (V2, No. 3, 11/1998) :

"Bruckner's music presents us with plateaus [plateaux, surely?] of intensity rather than orgasmic releases. His method of breaking off [coitus interruptus? My addition], replacing, then reinstating is not the typical tonal process of tension and relaxation."

What were we saying about Beethoven's Ninth? I've forgotten.