Freedom in Musical Form

[Sorrano]

For many years I've been under the supposition that Bach's music was purely mechanical and therefore boring. This is an example of false suppositions and bad faith. One day I came across a recording of some of Bach's solo violin works that was played with such warmth and energy that it has driven away, completely that supposition. This supposition was not without aid from other musicians in that I eagerly accepted certain ideas without seriously undertaking my own exploration of Bach's music that I might define my own ideas and opinions of the same. We are constantly bombarded with ideas and concepts that often have very little to do with the reality, but we readily accept them as truth. Hence, we put (bad) faith in those sources without making our own effort to research the issues.

[Peter]

For many years I've been under the supposition that Bach's music was purely mechanical and therefore boring. This is an example of false suppositions and bad faith. One day I came across a recording of some of Bach's solo violin works that was played with such warmth and energy that it has driven away, completely that supposition. This supposition was not without aid from other musicians in that I eagerly accepted certain ideas without seriously undertaking my own exploration of Bach's music that I might define my own ideas and opinions of the same. We are constantly bombarded with ideas and concepts that often have very little to do with the reality, but we readily accept them as truth. Hence, we put (bad) faith in those sources without making our own effort to research the issues.

What about when the supposition turns out to be correct? I knew little of Glazunov until recently because I assumed from what I've read that his music was going to be 'conservative' and less striking than that of his contemporaries - having listened to the symphonies I am confirmed in my 'supposition'. I know little of the music of Ries, Sterndale Bennett or Stanford but is it really necessary to fork out good money to find that despite some good craftsmanship, actually they were not the equal of their contemporaries, Beethoven, Schumann, Elgar?

However where it comes to music or art that is universally recognised such as the 2nd Viennese school, I have tried on many occasions to understand and like this music, I simply cannot. I have a whole selection of LPs and Cds of music I have tried to engage with and failed after repeated attempts over many years so I do somewhat resent Philip's 'supposition' of 'haw-haw' philistinism which I suspect is directed primarily at myself and the forum more generally.

[Quijote]

[...] However where it comes to music or art that is universally recognised such as the 2nd Viennese school, I have tried on many occasions to understand and like this music, I simply cannot. I have a whole selection of LPs and Cds of music I have tried to engage with and failed after repeated attempts over many years so I do somewhat resent Philip's 'supposition' of 'haw-haw' philistinism which I suspect is directed primarily at myself and the forum more generally.

I have said before that I have no problem with those who find certain "musics" difficult to engage with, and certainly not with those who make genuine efforts. My objection (what I call "haw-haw" philistinism) is best illustrated in the quote I gave above from Bonn 1827, an implication that there is some sort of modernist conspiracy to pull the wool over people's eyes (ears, surely?), and cheap jokes equating "Stockhausen" with "Dog crap" (haw, haw!). People do tend to poke fun at what they don't understand, or to demonize it, don't they?

[Quijote]

What about when the supposition turns out to be correct? I knew little of Glazunov until recently because I assumed from what I've read that his music was going to be 'conservative' and less striking than that of his contemporaries - having listened to the symphonies I am confirmed in my 'supposition'. I know little of the music of Ries, Sterndale Bennett or Stanford but is it really necessary to fork out good money to find that despite some good craftsmanship, actually they were not the equal of their contemporaries, Beethoven, Schumann, Elgar? [...]

I never prejudged the likes of Glazunov until I had actually played some music by him (albeit in a "support role", i.e. in the 'cello section). I wouldn't say "no" to hearing more of his work, though I won't go out of my way to study him (this being a question of time and priorities). Perhaps Taruskin covers him in more detail, but this needs to be checked (see his "History of Western Music"). Why though do you apply commercial criteria ("fork out good money") to aesthetic opinion? Could it not simply be interesting to study Ries, Bennett, Stanford et al?

[Peter]

I never prejudged the likes of Glazunov until I had actually played some music by him (albeit in a "support role", i.e. in the 'cello section). I wouldn't say "no" to hearing more of his work, though I won't go out of my way to study him (this being a question of time and priorities). Perhaps Taruskin covers him in more detail, but this needs to be checked (see his "History of Western Music"). Why though do you apply commercial criteria ("fork out good money") to aesthetic opinion? Could it not simply be interesting to study Ries, Bennett, Stanford et al?

You answer your own question - time and priorities and yes financial resources - having spent a small fortune on duplicating or replacing many of my LP recordings on CD. If someone wishes to make a thorough study of the legions of forgotten or overlooked composers then that's fine, the only problem being where to start and where to finish! Personally I think time is better spent on investigating in more detail lesser known works of great composers such as the excellent Beethoven piano sonata Op.54 which I was listening to this morning.

[Sorrano]

Roehre's listening lists is a good place to start. Many of the composers that he has listed are found on Youtube and that is an inexpensive way to be introduced to new composers.

[Michael]

Personally I think time is better spent on investigating in more detail lesser known works of great composers such as the excellent Beethoven piano sonata Op.54 which I was listening to this morning.

I couldn't agree more. The really great composers have so much to offer that one lifetime isn't enough (maybe it's my age.)
And Op.54 is a weird one - always overshadowed by the two giants on either side.

[Peter]

Roehre's listening lists is a good place to start. Many of the composers that he has listed are found on Youtube and that is an inexpensive way to be introduced to new composers.

True, but I find I concentrate best when away from the computer!

[Peter]

I couldn't agree more. The really great composers have so much to offer that one lifetime isn't enough (maybe it's my age.)
And Op.54 is a weird one - always overshadowed by the two giants on either side.

Yet I think it is truly a gem, a really subtle piece.

[Quijote]

[...]If someone wishes to make a thorough study of the legions of forgotten or overlooked composers then that's fine, the only problem being where to start and where to finish! Personally I think time is better spent on investigating in more detail lesser known works of great composers such as the excellent Beethoven piano sonata Op.54 which I was listening to this morning.

Personally, I'm glad there are no bounderies that we need respect (where to start and finish), and I rejoice in the vast musico-historical universe that is open to us.

[Quijote]

And why stop investigating even the more well-known works? If we are unable to continue "mining" these for meaning, then they are dead. Which is why I enjoy the writings of McClary and other musicologists with their wide palette of "agendas".

[Sorrano]

Personally, I'm glad there are no bounderies that we need respect (where to start and finish), and I rejoice in the vast musico-historical universe that is open to us.

Seconded!

[Peter]

Personally, I'm glad there are no bounderies that we need respect (where to start and finish), and I rejoice in the vast musico-historical universe that is open to us.

Absolutely! I'm not suggesting we have narrow boundaries, but obviously a lifetime isn't enough to properly explore everything which is why I'm happy to skip a thorough investigation of the works of say Sterndale Bennett etc.... Nor am I interested in wasting time on the personal agendas (often politically motivated) of modern trendy musicologists. I've also skipped ancient music because we simply cannot know exactly how it sounded so I begin my studies with the Notre dame school.

[Michael]

Yet I think it is truly a gem, a really subtle piece.

Oh, yes. Op. 54 is the ugly duckling of the piano sonatas. The second movement is quite unlike any other piano piece by Beethoven. I suppose you could describe it, anachronistically, as a toccata?

[Roehre]

Oh, yes. Op. 54 is the ugly duckling of the piano sonatas. The second movement is quite unlike any other piano piece by Beethoven. I suppose you could describe it, anachronistically, as a toccata?

But foreshadowing the 2nd mvt of the 5th symphony.