Slurs of the same note in Beethoven's scores

[djmomo17]

Recently in my blog I posted about something odd that sometimes occurs in B's scores.

In measure 27 of the Grosse Fugue string quartet he writes for the violin


how is that different from



Michael Tree from the Guarneri Quartet says:
"We all agree that something should be done, but not on what should be done. Interpreters of Beethoven have struggled with this question for more than a century and a half."

I'm curious how any musicians from here might approach this...

My original blog post is here

[Hofrat]

It is my understanding that the two eighth notes connected by the tie should be played with one pull of the bow. Without the tie, it would be played with two pulls of the bow.

[Peter]

Recently in my blog I posted about something odd that sometimes occurs in B's scores.

In measure 27 of the Grosse Fugue string quartet he writes for the violin


how is that different from



Michael Tree from the Guarneri Quartet says:
"We all agree that something should be done, but not on what should be done. Interpreters of Beethoven have struggled with this question for more than a century and a half."

I'm curious how any musicians from here might approach this...

My original blog post is here

I love your blogs - keep them coming!

The effect I think Beethoven meant in Op.110 was the bebung whereby the second note is repeated as an echo of the first. The 4/3 fingering in Op.110 clearly indicates a repeat of the note and this was what Czerny insisted on. Clearly in the quartet something different than a crotchet was intended and I think the 2nd note had to sound like the bebung effect.

[Bonn1827]

Ditto, Peter!!

[djmomo17]

Glad you enjoy reading the blog, it's great fun to write.

I love your blogs - keep them coming!

The effect I think Beethoven meant in Op.110 was the bebung whereby the second note is repeated as an echo of the first. The 4/3 fingering in Op.110 clearly indicates a repeat of the note and this was what Czerny insisted on. Clearly in the quartet something different than a crotchet was intended and I think the 2nd note had to sound like the bebung effect.

Can you elaborate? If by bebung you mean a hit followed by another softer hit, is it traditional to put a slur mark? For the quartet would the 2nd note be a change in bowing? Or just the same bow but 2 sforzandi?

[Chris]

I would play it in a single bow, pushing down a bit with the bow at the beginning of the second half of the beat.

[Peter]

Glad you enjoy reading the blog, it's great fun to write.



Can you elaborate? If by bebung you mean a hit followed by another softer hit, is it traditional to put a slur mark? For the quartet would the 2nd note be a change in bowing? Or just the same bow but 2 sforzandi?

Firstly never 'hit' a note unless it's Bartok!! The bebung effect was a left over from the Baroque and it was a sort of vibrato quite possible on the clavichord - it is this effect Beethoven is striving for and another example occurs in his Pastoral sonata (first movt). The first note is played firmer and the second note softer as an echo. I agree with Chris about the bowing in the quartet.

[Sorrano]

Firstly never 'hit' a note unless it's Bartok!! .

Lol! That was funny!

[djmomo17]

Firstly never 'hit' a note unless it's Bartok!!

Or La Monte Young.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Firstly never 'hit' a note unless it's Bartok!! The bebung effect was a left over from the Baroque and it was a sort of vibrato quite possible on the clavichord - it is this effect Beethoven is striving for and another example occurs in his Pastoral sonata (first movt). The first note is played firmer and the second note softer as an echo. I agree with Chris about the bowing in the quartet.

Oh my. A Bebung is neither an echo nor a "sort of vibrato". If it were an echo a longer Bebung would amount to a diminuendo. If it were a vibrato, it would affect the frequency, not the sound intensity. Don't ape the stupid musicologists, always distinguish correctly! (and see the sonata op. 110)

David Montgomery, "The Vibrato Thing"

[Peter]

Oh my. A Bebung is neither an echo nor a "sort of vibrato". If it were an echo a longer Bebung would amount to a diminuendo. If it were a vibrato, it would affect the frequency, not the sound intensity. Don't ape the stupid musicologists, always distinguish correctly! (and see the sonata op. 110)

David Montgomery, "The Vibrato Thing"

Wikipedia:

Bebung (German: a trembling; IPA: [ˈbeːbʊŋ]) is a type of vibrato executed on the clavichord. When a clavichord key is pressed, a small metal tangent strikes a string and remains in contact with it for as long as the key is held down. By applying a rocking pressure up and down the key with the finger, a performer can slightly alter the vibrating length of the string itself, producing a vibrato quality known as Bebung.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

Wikipedia:

Bebung (German: a trembling; IPA: [ˈbeːbʊŋ]) is a type of vibrato executed on the clavichord. When a clavichord key is pressed, a small metal tangent strikes a string and remains in contact with it for as long as the key is held down. By applying a rocking pressure up and down the key with the finger, a performer can slightly alter the vibrating length of the string itself, producing a vibrato quality known as Bebung.

Thank you for this excellent example of classic Wikipedian balderdash. A Bebung per definitionem cannot have a "vibrato quality"! If you do that with a clavicord, it's a vibrato; that's exactly what sets a clavicord nicely apart from a harpsichord and a piano, because the tangent stretches the string a bit and affects the pitch. But the slurs in the "Große Fuge" or the cello part at the beginning of the Allegro in the sonata op. 5/1 are a Bebung (albeit a slow one). I will never see the times when these to terms are being distinguished correctly.

[Preston]

So, what exactly is a Bebung on a stringed instrument? Just curious.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

So, what exactly is a Bebung on a stringed instrument? Just curious.

It's done by varying the pressure or the speed of the bow on the string. This will not affect the pitch of a tone - or else it would be a vibrato! Simple rule: vibrato is done with the left hand, Bebung with the right. German speaking string players use the technical term "Bogenvibrato", but of course this word is highly problematic and basically imprecise. On the other hand string players - just like musicologists - get the difference between vibrato and Bebung notoriously wrong.

[Preston]

Thanks Cetto. So, it probably almost sounds like playing the same note twice? Is Bebung used in the Introitus of Mozart's Requiem Mass, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoLjwMjDZ34, starting at :51 in this example.

I imagine that Bebung varies greatly depending on the particular piece of music- such as, how loud or soft?