Beethoven: slow and sustained

[Preston]

Well of course this forum is not really the place to discuss religion unless in reference to Beethoven. Deism was a very popular belief system of the Enlightenment and I think from Beethoven's words and beliefs he probably shared many of its ideas.

Sorry about that Peter. I got a little carried away, .

Best Regards,
Preston

[Tillyvalle]

Not very keen on that tempo, but maybe if I had heard it played that way first I would have preferred it. It's the same with the 'Moonlight', I hate to hear it played really slowly becuause the first recording I had was faster. However it can work the other way too. I'm not musically trained so I can only go by how I enjoy the way a piece sounds. The 4th Piano Concerto is one of my favourites and I listen to it a lot.

[Preston]

However you listen to Beethoven and great music I'm sure you're on the right path to enlightenment!

I wanted to touch on what you said a little more. I believe you are right about music/feeling and enlightenment. To my mind, proper feelings are not only the pathway to the divine and sacred, they are also what, IMO, divine beings (if they exist) live for- sacred feelings. The fascinating thing about Beethoven is that, IMO, he was filled with, the sacred and the supra, feelings. IMO, there have been other composers too achieve this to an extent, also. Mozart is one that really comes to my mind, with works of such sublimity as The Requiem and the Jupiter Symphony, etc.

Anyway, just thought I would mention that.

[Preston]

I said I had a surprise if anyone liked the Piano Concerto #4. Though, no one liked it so I was hesitant to post this. Do not worry, this will be the last piece I post.

This is Beethoven's 9th Symphony, 2nd mov. at a much, much, etc. slower tempo. What I find fascinating about it is the natural reverb carries over perfectly. I have not added any additional reverb. For instance, when the last note of the strings is played right before the timpani, the natural reverb of the concert hall, instruments, etc., carry over to the timpani perfectly!

The slowed 9th piece sounds much different than when at standard tempo. Each note is so powerful it will shake your house, then, the timpani comes in and brings the thunder! Powerful stuff.

I am not saying that the slower tempos are correct. I am just messing around, in a sense.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/defa...&content=music

I have always found this movement fascinating at a slow tempo, so I thought I would share.

[Quijote]

I have checked out these "slowed down" versions posted by Preston. The Piano Concerto No. 4 is slow, but still recognizable; the Scherzo from the Ninth Symphony is decidedly not, and is in utter opposition to the intended structure, unless you have superhuman aural recall/memory.
If the "detail" of Beethoven's works eludes you Preston (as played - more or less - to his instructions), then you can have no better motivation to learn to read music fluently and perhaps to play the piano to a certain degree (to a level where you can take the score and "pick out" the sections that might interest you for more analysis).
You have said elsewhere on this forum that you are not looking for music lessons, so I am therefore free to rescind my previous offer.

[Bonn1827]

I concur with Philip. There can be no more wonderful way to learn about music than to study its language!! Theory, harmony and musicology open up an otherwise arcane world and many more possibilities!!

[Preston]

I concur with Philip. There can be no more wonderful way to learn about music than to study its language!! Theory, harmony and musicology open up an otherwise arcane world and many more possibilities!!

I agree completely. That is why I am learning (slowly) to read music and why I take theory very seriously. I read a lot of information about theory.

The reason I posted the slower tempi was to ask you all what you thought, because I question the fast tempi (which I will post about in a while). Questions, such as- What is tempi? How should it be applied to a piece? What are supra-feelings? How should they be felt? What does supra-feeling do?, etc. Questions, I hope to try to answer, and while answering finding more out about the understanding and theory behind Beethoven's music.

[Preston]

I have checked out these "slowed down" versions posted by Preston. The Piano Concerto No. 4 is slow, but still recognizable; the Scherzo from the Ninth Symphony is decidedly not, and is in utter opposition to the intended structure, unless you have superhuman aural recall/memory.
If the "detail" of Beethoven's works eludes you Preston (as played - more or less - to his instructions), then you can have no better motivation to learn to read music fluently and perhaps to play the piano to a certain degree (to a level where you can take the score and "pick out" the sections that might interest you for more analysis).

Thank you Philip, for listening to the pieces. Until I get back to you, I ask you to listen to this interpretation of the 1st mov. of the 9th. Then let me know what you think?

1st mov.- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&view=3&dur=3#

[Bonn1827]

I find this performance appalling and feel sorry for the players who have obviously been misdirected by the so-called conductor. Embarrassing is all I can say.

[Bonn1827]

Tempi far far far too slow and not at all what Beethoven would have wanted. I take my cue from performance practitioners and musicologists like John Eliot Gardiner, Roger Norrington and many many others who use tempi closer to what Beethoven wanted - this in light of a HUGE amount of scholarship!

[Preston]

Tempi far far far too slow and not at all what Beethoven would have wanted.

Yes, I agree the tempo is far slower than the metronome marking Beethoven wrote for the 9th. Though, that is not entirely my point. My point, is to ask how Beethoven heard the music inside his head. What each instrument sounded like to him, what sound (any sound) meant to him, exactly what he expressed with the 9th (which is an unimaginably complex subject within itself), what each note meant to him, etc.

As I said above, if Beethoven was filled with supra-feelings (which I believe he was) then that changes much. Understand?

Anyway, this is an experiment of my own. I was just sharing it because I find it interesting, and know there are some others who do, also. There is nothing wrong with me doing that, nor, expressing what I believe about the fast tempi.

A while ago, I had a very brief conversation with the conductor of the 9th, listed above, that you call "appalling". He has written research papers regarding tempo, and why he used the tempo he did. I am going to upload them if the attachment size changes.

[Bonn1827]

Perhaps he should have stuck to his research papers instead of appearing in front of an orchestra!! This would have been a better idea.

I don't want to argue about Beethoven's feelings since I don't know what these were and, in the end, it is the artefact (i.e. the work itself in the form of a score) which is of primary importance, since that is what we've been left with.

I'm over this whole discussion, frankly.

[Preston]

Perhaps he should have stuck to his research papers instead of appearing in front of an orchestra!! This would have been a better idea.

In your opinion that would have been the better idea. I respect his interpretation, and, I have read where others like the performance. Though, the majority does not.

I don't want to argue about Beethoven's feelings since I don't know what these were and, in the end, it is the artefact (i.e. the work itself in the form of a score) which is of primary importance, since that is what we've been left with.

To my mind, Beethoven's feelings are written out in the scores. I am sure of this. Though, I know that what I feel is not what Beethoven felt, and it will probably never be. Though, I can dream.

The primary point I am trying to make is about supra-feeling and how it affects tempo. As I said, I will explain later about what I believe supra-feeling is and how it relates to tempo, if anyone cares to read it.

[Quijote]

I'm with Bonnie on all this. Voilà, one of my more "to the point" postings that doesn't take up 92 pages. I hope Michael is happy now.

[Preston]

I'm with Bonnie on all this. Voilà, one of my more "to the point" postings that doesn't take up 92 pages. I hope Michael is happy now.

Philip, I thought you were sound oriented and musically intellectual, ? Surely, you can appreciate someone making an honest interpretation at a piece of music, as they understand it?

The point of the thread is not a question of liking. It is a question of Beethoven and his feelings (primarily during his last period). Of course, no one is going to say:

"Oh, I like that unimaginably slow tempo, which is the complete opposite of what Beethoven wrote."

It is more about an appreciation of sound, the supra, etc., and the great genius of Beethoven.