Opus 125 and Opus 132 connection?

[Preston]

and Beethoven knew the effect it would have. He had no objection to occasionally being number one in the pop charts, in spite of his frequent artistic assertions (which were all genuine).

Exactly.

[Roehre]

He had no objection to occasionally being number one in the pop charts, in spite of his frequent artistic assertions (which were all genuine). His "Chorus of Dervishes" from the "Ruins of Athens" is a real Turkish rabble-rouser and Beethoven said something to the effect that "this should have them dancing in the aisles".
Something of this type occurs in the march section of the Ninth finale and I think this was a deliberate decision to drop the whole mood from the sacred to the profane.

Which IMO is perfectly demonstrated by the fact that the Turkish music in Finale 9 is an afterthought (the pages of this march in the autograph are completely differently sized, and the main score is essentially in landscape format, the march in portrait).

[Peter]

I don't believe that the finale of 9 is a weak piece as such, but it is a rather weak piece to conclude a symphony which begins with such an insurpassable movement like 9 I, got a scherzo like 9 II, followed by a double-variation movement like 9 III. IMO it doesn't possess the qualities of these first three movements, and a second variation movement doesn't make the whole of the symphony a stronger work either.

I like the Ode to Joy, but NOT as finale of 9.

Of course this criticism was levelled at the work at the time, however that finale has hardly harmed the work's success - to most people the 9th is the finale! I agree with your comments about the first three movements but possibly Beethoven felt that he had broken such new ground that something far more than an ordinary finale was needed?

[Michael]

IMO it doesn't possess the qualities of these first three movements, and a second variation movement doesn't make the whole of the symphony a stronger work either.

.

Yes, the finale is a set of variations following another movement which is based on variations, but the finale is much more. It has elements of sonata-form and even the concerto, where the human voice may be regarded as the solo instrument(s). There could not be a greater contrast between the third and fourth movements.

[Preston]

Yes, the finale is a set of variations following another movement which is based on variations, but the finale is much more. It has elements of sonata-form and even the concerto, where the human voice may be regarded as the solo instrument(s). There could not be a greater contrast between the third and fourth movements.

This is kind of what I was saying. How do you write a symphony with voices, so to say? Also, who would know better than Beethoven.

I remember reading on this forum, that Charles Rosen stated that the finale was really similar to 4 movements in 1.

Now if I just knew musicology better, .

[Hofrat]

The synopsis of form in my Peters Edition score of Beethoven's 9th symphony call the finale a "Fantasy."

[Sorrano]

The finale of the 9th is a bit strange in regards to what has gone before. We are used to it with all the subsequent choral symphonic output, but in relationship to the time and culture it was plain weird. It is apparent that Beethoven had long considered a choral finale, so it is not accidental but with respect to the Quartet finale he certainly had reservations whether this would work. Whether one works better than the other might make for an interesting debate the symphony will continue to remain in its present form.

P.S. I rather LIKE the Battle Symphony!

[Michael]

P.S. I rather LIKE the Battle Symphony!

It's great for showing off your stereo setup. You have the English and French army entering from different sides and the explosions will show off your subwoofers!
(I don't have a subwoofer. I barely have a woofer.)

[Leira]

Musically I think Wellingtons Sieg and Der glorreiche Augenblick are much too underrated

[Michael]

Musically I think Wellingtons Sieg and Der glorreiche Augenblick are much too underrated

I think so, too. If you can get a recording that is not too full of gunfire, the music to the Battle symphony is well worth a listen. And the cantata has some lovely sections for solo voice and violin.

[Preston]

Musically I think Wellingtons Sieg and Der glorreiche Augenblick are much too underrated

Would you mind explaining?