Folksong "Return to Ulster"

[gprengel]

The song "Return to Ulster" from Woo 152 to me is the most wonderful song from Beethoven I know. It is so expressive!! Here Beethoven reaches a depth as later only Schubert could achieve in his best songs.

What I would like to know: I always thought that it belongs to the "folksongs" which Beethoven just arranged. But today I read that the lyrics are from Walter Scott who lived in the same time as Beethoven. So it is not a folksong. Does this mean that Beethoven wrote also the melody? Does anybody know?

[susanwen]

Here is the poem by Sir Walter Scott:

The Return to Ulster
Once again,— but how chang'd since my wand'rings began—
I have heard the deep voice of the Lagan and Bann,
And the pines of Clanbrasil resound to the roar
That wearies the echoes of fair Tullamore.
Alas! My poor bosom, and why shouldst thou burn!
With the scenes of my youth can its raptures return?
Can I live the dear life of delusion again,
That flow'd when these echoes first mix'd with my strain?

It was then that around me, though poor and unknown,
High spells of mysterious enchantment were thrown;
The streams were of silver, of diamond the dew,
The land was an Eden, for fancy was new.
I had heard of our bards, and my soul was on fire
At the rush of their verse, and the sweep of their lyre:
To me 'twas not legend, nor tale to the ear,
But a vision of noontide, distinguish'd and clear.

But was she, too, a phantom, the maid who stood by,
And listed my lay, while she turn?d from mine eye?
Was she, too, a vision, just glancing to view,
Then dispers'd in the sunbeam, or melted to dew?
Oh! Would it had been so,— O would that her eye
Had been but a star-glance that shot through the sky,
And her voice, that was moulded to melody's thrill
Had been but a zephyr that sigh'd and was still.

Oh! would it had been so,— not then this poor heart
Had learn'd the sad lesson, to love and to part;
To bear, unassisted, its burthen of care,
While I toil'd for the wealth I had no one to share.
Not then had I said, when life's summer was done,
And the hours of her autumn were fast speeding on,
"Take the fame and the riches ye brought in your train,
And restore me the dream of my spring-tide again."

[Preston]

Thank you very much for that Susan. Very touching. Now, I will have to listen to the song for the first time. Thank you again.

[Peter]

The song "Return to Ulster" from Woo 152 to me is the most wonderful song from Beethoven I know. It is so expressive!! Here Beethoven reaches a depth as later only Schubert could achieve in his best songs.

What I would like to know: I always thought that it belongs to the "folksongs" which Beethoven just arranged. But today I read that the lyrics are from Walter Scott who lived in the same time as Beethoven. So it is not a folksong. Does this mean that Beethoven wrote also the melody? Does anybody know?

No he didn't! Thomson commissioned new texts to be written to old tunes.

[PDG]

Peter, you mean he commissioned new arrangements on the existing tunes? Or did he indeed also commission new text on the old words?

Either or both ways, I have the same old problem with the folksongs: Beethoven did not write the melodies. And without the opportunity to hear the music, unshackled from the daft singing drenching it, I find it infuriating to not be able to easily distinguish between the original composition and the "learned arrangement" of same...

Where's Michael, anyhow?...

[gprengel]

Today I read that Beethoven composed all these pieces just on the base of the melodies - which Thomson sent him without the lyrics! Beethoven asked him repeatedly to sent him also the words but Thomson never responded.
Really amazing ...

[Peter]

Peter, you mean he commissioned new arrangements on the existing tunes? Or did he indeed also commission new text on the old words?

Either or both ways, I have the same old problem with the folksongs: Beethoven did not write the melodies. And without the opportunity to hear the music, unshackled from the daft singing drenching it, I find it infuriating to not be able to easily distinguish between the original composition and the "learned arrangement" of same...

Where's Michael, anyhow?...

He commissioned new texts for the old folk tunes as well as commissioning arrangements of the music. Why is the singing daft just because Beethoven didn't write the melodies? Listen to the subtle harmonies Beethoven provides as well as some ingenious introductions and codas.

[Peter]

Today I read that Beethoven composed all these pieces just on the base of the melodies - which Thomson sent him without the lyrics! Beethoven asked him repeatedly to sent him also the words but Thomson never responded.
Really amazing ...

This isn't strictly true. Certainly for the first 53 songs Beethoven didn't have the texts and threatened to cease the work if they weren't supplied. Thomson explained that he commissioned new poetry after the settings had been made, but from 1813 on he did send some texts - many of the titles are found in Beethoven's manuscripts. However Thomson still changed some texts after Beethoven had set them!

[gprengel]

You didn't respond to the song "Return to Ulster" itself yet? Isn't this song unique and just musically just marvellous? It seems it was Beethoven's very first Folksong setting.

What other of the songs you love?

[PDG]

He commissioned new texts for the old folk tunes as well as commissioning arrangements of the music. Why is the singing daft just because Beethoven didn't write the melodies?

It isn't daft for that reason, but rather because it obscures Beethoven's contribution to these pieces (which is all that interests me). And LvB himself never knew the words so why should we have to suffer them?!

[Peter]

It isn't daft for that reason, but rather because it obscures Beethoven's contribution to these pieces (which is all that interests me). And LvB himself never knew the words so why should we have to suffer them?!

But in many cases he did know the words and he took the work of arrangement very seriously. I think the pieces are delightful and obviously enhanced by Beethoven's clever approach to harmony - more subtle than other composers who undertook this work.

[al1432]

The song is an arrangement of an air by 17th-18th Century blind harpist and song composer Turlough O'Carolan called "Young Terence MacDonough" or "Lament For Terence MacDonough". Versions of the original tune can be found on Youtube ( e.g. https://youtu.be/0C6p8OcUuoo ). Under contract with Scottish publisher George Thomson, Beethoven produced arrangements for a number of Irish tunes, this being one. The original text of the song was replaced with text from Sir Walter Scott's poem "The Return To Ulster". Although Scott and LvB lived contemporaneously, this was not a collaborative effort. It's hard to know how the original truly sounded before others may have modified it, but in my opinion, Beethoven's version has to be considered an arrangement, not a composition, since the original melody and structure are kept pretty much intact, albeit very much enlarged and embellished upon, one notable original addition being a bridge containing Beethoven's signature 3-shorts-and-a-long "da da da dah" motif, repeated at various times throughout the song.

[Michael]

Either or both ways, I have the same old problem with the folksongs: Beethoven did not write the melodies. And without the opportunity to hear the music, unshackled from the daft singing drenching it, I find it infuriating to not be able to easily distinguish between the original composition and the "learned arrangement" of same...

Where's Michael, anyhow?...

Huh? What?
Oh, my God, PDG is back! And he hasn't changed a bit!

I do have to agree a little bit about the "daft singing". Operatic voices don't really suit the material and a case in point is the title song of this thread. I have at least three recordings of this song and a German voice doesn't really give you the flavour - especially when certain place-names are mispronounced.
Then again, Robert White, even though he is American, gives it the authentic Irish touch.

Just listen to the "backing track" with its hints of the Fifth Symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FxO...f5XGJzNe7rg1Sd

Also, listen to the beautiful arrangement of this, with Yo Yo Ma again. (He has done a bit of rearranging in order to give us more cello but Beethoven might have approved):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWhGmLXcHa8

Text is by Lord Byron. What more do you need?
Now, I'm going back to bed!




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[Peter]

Huh? What?
Oh, my God, PDG is back! And he hasn't changed a bit!

I do have to agree a little bit about the "daft singing". Operatic voices don't really suit the material and a case in point is the title song of this thread. I have at least three recordings of this song and a German voice doesn't really give you the flavour - especially when certain place-names are mispronounced.
Then again, Robert White, even though he is American, gives it the authentic Irish touch.

Just listen to the "backing track" with its hints of the Fifth Symphony:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FxO...f5XGJzNe7rg1Sd

This is an old thread Michael - it was back in 2009 when PDG wrote that!

[Michael]

This is an old thread Michael - it was back in 2009 when PDG wrote that!

I really do need to get back to bed!

I was caught with that one. I never spotted the date! Talk about the past coming back to haunt you.

However, I stand by my convictions and will not be swayed from the path of righteousness.

And those songs are well worth a listen.



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