Karajan

[Peter]

I Watched a documentary on Karajan last night - I have to admit I think he is very impressive to watch as a conductor, such total control and concentration. Does anyone have his dvd's of the Beethoven symphonies?

[Chris]

No, but I have seen clips from them on YouTube. It was interesting to watch and compare his style to others conducting the same works, such as Carlos Kleiber.

[Tony John Hearne]

I don't really know why but I wouldn't have automatically associated Maestro Karajan with Bolero but have a look at this I thought t quite superb

Part one http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=b3J2_EOHBI4

Part two http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ggsCw4i0S-U

[Sorrano]

I think I have the 9th with Karajan, but it might be Bernstein. I'll have to dig that out.

[Preston]

I respect his conducting capabilities and things like that. Although, he was apparently a strong Nazi! He also seems to be to proud of his capabilities, IMO.

I can hardly watch him because of these reasons.

[Peter]

I respect his conducting capabilities and things like that. Although, he was apparently a strong Nazi! He also seems to be to proud of his capabilities, IMO.

I can hardly watch him because of these reasons.

Well I have to say Preston I can't agree even though I understand your sentiments. It is true he joined the Nazi party but probably for professional rather than political reasons - he was a young man, ambitious and keen to further his career. Now I'm not condoning that but it should be seen in context. It is also worth keeping in mind that in 1942 von Karajan violated Nazi dictum by marrying a woman of Jewish ancestry. As a result he was dismissed from the party. As far as I am aware he left Germany in 1944 and he himself is not associated with any crimes. Then you have to ask where does one draw the line? Do we not listen to Wagner or Richard Strauss (who also had strong association with the Nazis)? Even Chopin expressed anti-semetic views which were common in Europe in the 19th century and long before - in England in the 13th century Edward l made the Jews wear a yellow star and by the Edict of Expulsion of 1290, confiscated their property and formally expelled all Jews. They did not return until the 17th century, when Oliver Cromwell invited them to come back.

Is Gesualdo off limits because he was a murderer? Tchaikovsky because he was gay? It is very easy to judge but harder to understand. Surely if a piece of music is great or an interpretation sublime, it is that we should consider rather than the faults of the individual? - in that respect we should all be found wanting.

[Sorrano]

I do have the Karajan DVD; I've enjoyed listening to his performances very much. His earlier Beethoven cycle ('60's) is supposed to be his better recordings of the symphonies. While he did have Nazi association, I do have to agree with Peter that this was more of a career move than a political move. Seems that he was quite ambitious with his musical capabilities.

[Preston]

It is very easy to judge but harder to understand. Surely if a piece of music is great or an interpretation sublime, it is that we should consider rather than the faults of the individual? - in that respect we should all be found wanting.

.
You are right that it is very easy to judge but harder to understand. I understand to a point, but when that point turns completely wrong, then I disagree, much as I do with the Nazi beliefs. I imagine that you and Sorrano are right, that Karajan was probably not deeply fond of the Nazi reign.

The Nazi Party is hard, for me, to understand. It is hard to understood why Nazi's enjoyed making people suffer so much, why they had such sadistic ideas, etc., not saying anything about Karajan. Although, I guess that you can understand what they believed in, which is another example of religion being used, wrongly, for power, etc. There has always been a problem with religious beliefs turning into wars, etc. It is clear that the majority of the Nazi party was wrong, and to me, not understanding.

I am very tolerant of other people's views, especially religion, but when it turns to cold blooded murder of the masses, priests raping children, wars, etc., then it is damn hard to be tolerant of.

[Sorrano]

.
You are right that it is very easy to judge but harder to understand. I understand to a point, but when that point turns completely wrong, then I disagree, much as I do with the Nazi beliefs. I imagine that you and Sorrano are right, that Karajan was probably not deeply fond of the Nazi reign.

The Nazi Party is hard, for me, to understand. It is hard to understood why Nazi's enjoyed making people suffer so much, why they had such sadistic ideas, etc., not saying anything about Karajan. Although, I guess that you can understand what they believed in, which is another example of religion being used, wrongly, for power, etc. There has always been a problem with religious beliefs turning into wars, etc. It is clear that the majority of the Nazi party was wrong, and to me, not understanding.

I am very tolerant of other people's views, especially religion, but when it turns to cold blooded murder of the masses, priests raping children, wars, etc., then it is damn hard to be tolerant of.

My understanding of the Nazi party is that it was a secular movement, not religious. In fact they defied the dominant religions of that time. This was more of a Nationalistic secularism. Remember that millions were swept into this horrendous affair, sparked by the charisma and nationalistic views of the leaders. Karajan, when in 1933 first became affiliated with the party had no conceptions any more than did others of that nation that the party would seek to destroy the Jewish people and attempt to govern the world. Undoubtedly, he was moved by the dramatic orations and realized that his career could be enhanced by embracing the political ideals set forth at that time. His later marriage to a woman of Jewish descent demonstrates that his interest was more related to his career than to the political notions.

Be mindful, Preston, that religion does not necessarily cause all the wars. But often when that comes into play the wars become quite vicious.

[PDG]

Is Gesualdo off limits because he was a murderer? Tchaikovsky because he was gay? It is very easy to judge but harder to understand. Surely if a piece of music is great or an interpretation sublime, it is that we should consider rather than the faults of the individual? - in that respect we should all be found wanting.

Peter, a surprisingly dogmatic and aloof response from you, I think. So you now accept that Tchaikovsky was 'gay'? I think Preston may have been expecting a less rigid response...

[PDG]

Be mindful, Preston, that religion does not necessarily cause all the wars. But often when that comes into play the wars become quite vicious.

Well, Sorrano, whenever are wars not vicious? I don't believe that Preston needs to be mindful of anything. Too much finger-wagging tonight, methinks...

[Sorrano]

Well, Sorrano, whenever are wars not vicious? I don't believe that Preston needs to be mindful of anything. Too much finger-wagging tonight, methinks...

I sit, corrected.

[PDG]

Sir, your humility deserves the biggest slice of Humble Pie this side of the Grand Canyon...................

[Preston]

Welcome back PDG and thank you, and Peter's post was fine and insightful, as was your's Sorrano.

I am not a major in government or economics, , if you know what I mean. Just some food for thought, I think, a lot of the times, I imagine, starry eyed enthusiasts (not all of them, by any means), who see success for themselves, because of their somewhat twisted surroundings, have and will turn into some of the most "successful" tyrants and unruly people in history and the future.

I do think that Karajan was probably a good man, and was probably most definitely more interested in his career then the politics. And yes, it is hard to talk about him... because of his love for classical music, as I think that it is hard for a lot of people, who believe that the masters of classical are very spiritual and sublime and truly understood music, which I completely agree with, instead of something like popular cultured music, POP, you know the stuff which requires terrible rhythms and funky beats, .

Y'all have to understand, I have pretty much never seen such horror as the Nazi concentration camps, as I am imagine that y'all do. When I have seen the old black and white videos of the Jewish people... walking around using the bathroom all over themselves (what little they could get out), being so thin that so many of them would just fall over and die, being so thin that I see their bones coming though their bodies (this thought does not get out of my head when I think of WWII), and I mean so many people suffering, etc., I almost think that there is no true compassion with some people, which is true. Don't get me wrong though, I think that there are so many good people who truly care though.

PDG, did you make it to the Beethoven concert in Vienna?

[Peter]

.
You are right that it is very easy to judge but harder to understand. I understand to a point, but when that point turns completely wrong, then I disagree, much as I do with the Nazi beliefs. I imagine that you and Sorrano are right, that Karajan was probably not deeply fond of the Nazi reign.

The Nazi Party is hard, for me, to understand. It is hard to understood why Nazi's enjoyed making people suffer so much, why they had such sadistic ideas, etc., not saying anything about Karajan. Although, I guess that you can understand what they believed in, which is another example of religion being used, wrongly, for power, etc. There has always been a problem with religious beliefs turning into wars, etc. It is clear that the majority of the Nazi party was wrong, and to me, not understanding.

I am very tolerant of other people's views, especially religion, but when it turns to cold blooded murder of the masses, priests raping children, wars, etc., then it is damn hard to be tolerant of.

Preston - that simply isn't the issue. No one here is going to disagree with your views on Nazism (which we do have the other forum to discuss this is in if you wish). My initial post was on Karajan and I mean Karajan the musician. You immediately jumped on the nazi band-waggon which I think is rather unfortunate.