Beethoven's 9th: alterations

[Preston]

I was reading on Wikipedia that there are many different ornamentation's (think that is the right word), concerning Beethoven's 9th symphony. So I started thinking which performance of the 9th is the most correct. It says that conductors have changed the instrumentation because they felt that it was more right with the modern orchestra. So what I am wondering is any information on this and what is the most accurate performance of Beethoven's 9th?

[Peter]

Yes it is an interesting point. Probably Jonathan Del Mar's Barenreiter edition of the symphonies comes closest in that it sought to remove many errors from previous editions. Several recordings exist using this edition.
http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/lvb/index.html

[Hofrat]

Although I held a facsimile of the manuscript of Beethoven's 9th for a few seconds, it did not afford me the time to check for the possibility of a very significant error in the 2nd movement. What was Beethoven's exact instruction to return to the start of the movement at the end of the trio? Modern scores shows the instruction "Da Capo" (to the beginning). A very learned Beethoven scholar told me that the manuscript shows the instruction "Da Segno" (to the sign). But Beethoven forgot to indicate the placement of the sign!! According to this scholar, the most logical place for the sign is bar 9. In other words, go to bar 9 and skip the opening curtain!

It could be that we have not performed the 2nd movement right for the last 180 years.

[Quijote]

Yes it is an interesting point. Probably Jonathan Del Mar's Barenreiter edition of the symphonies comes closest in that it sought to remove many errors from previous editions. Several recordings exist using this edition.
http://www.baerenreiter.com/html/lvb/index.html

I have to concur with Peter (damn it!). Key (orchestration) texts in my lamentable musical education : Del Mar, Walter Piston, and Gordon Jacob.

[Preston]

Thank you all for the information and suggestions. It seems to me to be a shame that we may not have performed it right after all these years. Peter, thank you for the website, looks interesting.

[Preston]

Although I held a facsimile of the manuscript of Beethoven's 9th for a few seconds, it did not afford me the time to check for the possibility of a very significant error in the 2nd movement. What was Beethoven's exact instruction to return to the start of the movement at the end of the trio? Modern scores shows the instruction "Da Capo" (to the beginning). A very learned Beethoven scholar told me that the manuscript shows the instruction "Da Segno" (to the sign). But Beethoven forgot to indicate the placement of the sign!! According to this scholar, the most logical place for the sign is bar 9. In other words, go to bar 9 and skip the opening curtain!

It could be that we have not performed the 2nd movement right for the last 180 years.

Hofrat, wouldn't the scribes have scribed out the symphony correctly (the "Da Capo" or the "Da Segno"), and all the other parts? Meaning that if we looked at what the scribes did, that we could see the symphony as it should be?

Peter do you know where I could get a recording of the Del Mar orchestration?

[Michael]

The complete set of symphonies in the new del Mar edition is available here at a bargain price:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-.../dp/B00000IFP6

[Hofrat]

Hofrat, wouldn't the scribes have scribed out the symphony correctly (the "Da Capo" or the "Da Segno"), and all the other parts? Meaning that if we looked at what the scribes did, that we could see the symphony as it should be?

By scribes I assume you mean editors and copyists. There are two ways they could have looked at it:
1. There is no "segno" so Beethoven meant "Da capo."
2. Beethoven meant "Da segno" so where in blazes do we put the "segno?"

Obviously, taking the former is the easiest way to go. Nothing is lost by going to the first bar. But let us look at the first repeat of the 2nd movement. Beethoven does not go back to the first bar. He goes back to the 9th bar!! He skips that 8 bar "curtain!!" Could it be that Beethoven meant for that opening 8-bar "curtain" to be played just once? If so, then it is most logical to place the "segno" at bar 9 and complete Beethoven's instruction of "Da segno."

[Preston]

By scribes I assume you mean editors and copyists. There are two ways they could have looked at it:
1. There is no "segno" so Beethoven meant "Da capo."
2. Beethoven meant "Da segno" so where in blazes do we put the "segno?"

Obviously, taking the former is the easiest way to go. Nothing is lost by going to the first bar. But let us look at the first repeat of the 2nd movement. Beethoven does not go back to the first bar. He goes back to the 9th bar!! He skips that 8 bar "curtain!!" Could it be that Beethoven meant for that opening 8-bar "curtain" to be played just once? If so, then it is most logical to place the "segno" at bar 9 and complete Beethoven's instruction of "Da segno."

Yes, copyists. Thank you for the response. I guess in simpler terms what I was saying was wouldn't the copy the copyists made be the correct copy, with no mistakes, so why wouldn't people follow that today? Are there no copies of the first prints? But you clarified my questions by pointing that apparently even the first performance may not have been as exactly as Beethoven intended it to be!!!, I think that's what you're saying.

Thanks for the link Michael.

Best Regards,
Preston

[Chris]

The complete set of symphonies in the new del Mar edition is available here at a bargain price:

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-.../dp/B00000IFP6

And it's just an excellent set overall. Probably my favorite set of the Beethoven symphonies.

[Hofrat]

Yes, copyists. Thank you for the response. I guess in simpler terms what I was saying was wouldn't the copy the copyists made be the correct copy, with no mistakes, so why wouldn't people follow that today? Are there no copies of the first prints? But you clarified my questions by pointing that apparently even the first performance may not have been as exactly as Beethoven intended it to be!!!, I think that's what you're saying.

Beethoven was constantly carping about copyists' mistakes, which usually stemmed from the composer's terrible handwriting. And the copyists took great liberties when they had to guess.

[Frankli]

Thank you all for the information and suggestions. It seems to me to be a shame that we may not have performed it right after all these years. Peter, thank you for the website, looks interesting.

It was Wagner who wrote that it is the obligation of a conductor to adapt the score to the changed orchestras, with their changed size, blends, and balance, as well as to our changed taste (he himself once used a chorus of 300 singers!).
Wagner also wrote that Beethoven had done certain things in the score wrong or clumsy because of his deafness, so "improving" the score was just a way of helping him.
Wagners "improvements" (reinstrumentations, tempo changes, moving parts an octave done) are still used by many conductors; they have become part of the tradition. They can be useful when a modern size orchestra is playing, with all kinds of inherent balance problems.

Happily we now live in an age of restoration, so we can now hear the music following the Del Mar edition, and performed by orchestras that are better adapted to the demands of Beethoven's time.

[Preston]

It was Wagner who wrote that it is the obligation of a conductor to adapt the score to the changed orchestras, with their changed size, blends, and balance, as well as to our changed taste (he himself once used a chorus of 300 singers!).
Wagner also wrote that Beethoven had done certain things in the score wrong or clumsy because of his deafness, so "improving" the score was just a way of helping him.
Wagners "improvements" (reinstrumentations, tempo changes, moving parts an octave done) are still used by many conductors; they have become part of the tradition. They can be useful when a modern size orchestra is playing, with all kinds of inherent balance problems.

Happily we now live in an age of restoration, so we can now hear the music following the Del Mar edition, and performed by orchestras that are better adapted to the demands of Beethoven's time.

Thanks for the information. These are just some thoughts I have. Should the orchestras not follow exactly what Beethoven wrote though, even with the modern orchestra? I mean, I don't know but it seems to me that we should follow what Beethoven wrote and, for instance, since we now have larger orchestras we should play the same parts just with a larger orchestra instead of changing parts?

As far as Wagner, well remember how mad Beethoven would get when people changed his music to suit what they thought it should be. He did not like for people to change his music. I remember reading that he got upset at Ries for changing some of his music at a live performance. Also, Thayer states that somebody showed Beethoven some of their music and Beethoven pointed out a bunch of mistakes. Then the man said well you do it (talking to Beethoven) and Beethoven said I can and you cannot. So this shows us that Beethoven was perfectly aware of his (Beethoven's) so called "mistakes" and felt that he was right to make them?

So my point is I think we should follow what Beethoven wrote and not make alterations because we think it suits.

[Frankli]

So my point is I think we should follow what Beethoven wrote and not make alterations because we think it suits.

Yes, agreed. Problem is that the specific sound of an early 19th c. orchestra is an inherent part of the composition. A modern orchestra, with its huge forces, different balance, and different blends of timbres, has hard times performing the music the way Beethoven wrote it.

Rather than using Wagner's "improvements", it would be a better idea to either perform with a "HIP" orchestra, or to reduce orchestra size, restore balance between strings and winds in favor of the last, and get rid of the "romantic" way of phrasing.

[Peter]

So my point is I think we should follow what Beethoven wrote and not make alterations because we think it suits.

I think this is largely what is happening now Preston. Jonathan del Mar's edition attempts to put right many mistakes and modern orchestras generally have been greatly influenced by the HIP movement.