How well known was Beethoven's music outside Vienna?

[Peter]

We need to know what you mean by well known? You could ask how many people in Vienna then or (even today) were 'familiar' with his music? I mean how many have actually heard a complete symphony/concerto/quartet/sonata? Beethoven wasn't performed a great deal in Italy - opera was obviously far more important than symphonic music.

[Hofrat]

I mentioned a 1910-1911 poll that was taken of the audiences of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra regarding favorite classical works. In third place came a symphony by Joachim Raff (1822-1888). Although Raff's music was very popular in German speaking countries during his lifetime, it completely disappeared immediately following his death. Yet, a Raff symphony remained very popular in the USA two decades later. How does that happen?

I will tell you. Champions! Musicians, musicologists, conductors, and just plain zealots who promote a composer's music. Raff had three important champions who continued to perform his music while Europe ceased:
1. Edward MacDowell (Raff's American pupil of composition).
2. Walter Damrosch (conductor of the New York Philharmonic).
3. Theodore Thomas (conductor of the Chicago Symphony).

So, let us hook up with Beethoven. Who promoted Beethoven's music outside of Vienna? We know of Eggert in Sweden (conducted Beethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonies in 1808). We know of Clementi in England. Who else advanced Beethoven?

[Peter]

I mentioned a 1910-1911 poll that was taken of the audiences of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra regarding favorite classical works. In third place came a symphony by Joachim Raff (1822-1888). Although Raff's music was very popular in German speaking countries during his lifetime, it completely disappeared immediately following his death. Yet, a Raff symphony remained very popular in the USA two decades later. How does that happen?

I will tell you. Champions! Musicians, musicologists, conductors, and just plain zealots who promote a composer's music. Raff had three important champions who continued to perform his music while Europe ceased:
1. Edward MacDowell (Raff's American pupil of composition).
2. Walter Damrosch (conductor of the New York Philharmonic).
3. Theodore Thomas (conductor of the Chicago Symphony).

So, let us hook up with Beethoven. Who promoted Beethoven's music outside of Vienna? We know of Eggert in Sweden (conducted Beethoven's 1st and 2nd symphonies in 1808). We know of Clementi in England. Who else advanced Beethoven?

Well simply because popularity is no guide to quality. Raff wrote some fine music and so did many earlier composers, but Raff is no Brahms and Ries is no Beethoven. In London the Philharmonic society played a great part in promoting Beethoven - people such as Smart, Neate, Cramer, Potter, Bridgetower and Clementi were all members or associates. Beethoven was represented at the inaugural concert at the Argyll rooms on 8 March 1813 by an unidentified symphony. His music featured regularly and of the 80 concerts given during the next decade, only 12 did not include one or more Beethoven works.

In Paris Berlioz was probably his greatest champion, but of course posthumously.

[Quijote]

Peter said above : "Well simply because popularity is no guide to quality."

Indeed. Hence the popularity today of Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Elgar, Mahler, Bruckner, Tracy Emin (who?), the Beatles, Amy Winehouse, Greig, Albinoni, Strauss, ... (list continues), no? Be careful, Peter, of the thin ice you are walking on.

Reception of B's music is a fascinating subject though, I grant you. I will have more to say later.

[PDG]

Peter said above : "Well simply because popularity is no guide to quality."

Indeed. Hence the popularity today of.....Tracy Emin (who?)

Huh?

[Quijote]

Huh?

If ever there was someone to take a quote out of context, you, PDG, get first prize. Stay sharp, dear boy.

[PDG]

If ever there was someone to take a quote out of context, you, PDG, get first prize. Stay sharp, dear boy.

I'm as sharp as a B flat, and always have been...

[Quijote]

I'm as sharp as a B flat, and always have been...

Well, I suppose enharmonically we could spell that as C double-flat, but that is a rare bird indeed (although if my memory serves me correctly I have seen such a note in one of LvB's late quartets).

[PDG]

I think it's a C flat in Opus 127, somewhere?...

[Quijote]

I think it's a C flat in Opus 127, somewhere?...

I'll check, you may be right (loath as I am to say so).

[PDG]

I think it's half way through the slow movement - sounds like a terrible dischord...Am fumbling for the cd even as we speak.....where are you, you son of a .....

[Quijote]

I think it's half way through the slow movement - sounds like a terrible dischord...Am fumbling for the cd even as we speak.....where are you, you son of a .....

There is a C-flat as you say in Op. 127, 1st movt., Allegro, bars 234 and 238, in the 'cello part, but I'm looking specifically for a C double-flat.

[Peter]

Peter said above : "Well simply because popularity is no guide to quality."

Indeed. Hence the popularity today of Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Elgar, Mahler, Bruckner, Tracy Emin (who?), the Beatles, Amy Winehouse, Greig, Albinoni, Strauss, ... (list continues), no? Be careful, Peter, of the thin ice you are walking on.

Reception of B's music is a fascinating subject though, I grant you. I will have more to say later.

I think you've actually fallen through the ice! Since you insist on being pedantic I meant instant popularity - posterity has a way of sorting the wheat from the chaff. In anycase Beethoven popular music? Really you could have falled me.

[Sorrano]

It's interesting, too, what was popular in their own lifetime as to what's popular today (regarding their music).