Please forgive what may seem an elementary question - but having just listened to the Violin Concerto and the fragment of another that is on one of the disks in the Sony masterworks set, and then to several disks of the violin sonatas and string quartets, I was led to wonder why LVB only wrote one full violin concerto? It clearly wasn't for lack of love of the instrument or ability to utilise its every possibility, and if there was commercial demand for the chamber works featuring violin I would have thought that more violin concertos would have found an audience alongside the piano concertos. Did he or his contemporaries ever comment on this and what other explanations are around?
-
-
Well the earlier C major concerto may well have been completed and lost rather than abandoned. Composers tended to write concertos primarily for themselves or with particular performers in mind and obviously this is why there are more piano concertos than violin by Mozart or Beethoven and also why Haydn wrote few piano concertos as he was no virtuoso.'Man know thyself' -
This certainly seems to be the case. However, Haydn has left us two marvellous 'cello concertos (the 1st in C only discovered in the 1960s) and he was no virtuoso 'cellist either. Ergo, he wrote it with a particular player in mind. This is disappointing to me : Beethoven knew (and seemingly admired) a professional 'cellist in his "entourage" : Linke. So, why no 'cello concerto from Beethoven, we may ask. I deeply regret that LvB never wrote a concerto for my instrument. OK, he has left us 5 sonatas, and a "nice" 'cello part in the Triple Concerto (a work I have little time for), but really, Ludwig, you could have done better for us !!!!!!!Originally posted by Peter View PostComment
-
Ahhhh, the use of the word "better" coming from our illustrious Philip! (I write that jokingly, of course! [add the emoticon of your choice])Originally posted by Philip View Post
I will have to listen to the Haydn Cello Concerti; it seems I remember something about the discovery. But I have to agree with Philip, it is a pity that Beethoven did not leave us with more for the Cello. I've been enjoying the sonatas; what do you think of them, Philip? Do they do the instrument justice?Comment
-
They do, but it can hardly be said that they "stretch" the instrument. I fear this is because they were written for competent but essentially amateur 'cellists. On the other hand, the Haydn cello concerti display (and require) far more ability. They are fully idiomatic of the instrument. I would love to know the name of the 'cellist Haydn had in mind. I think (I can't find the source for the moment) it was the lead 'cellist in the Esterharzy (?) orchestra.Originally posted by Sorrano View PostComment
-
Whether or not Beethoven's Cello Sonatas "stretch" the instrument they do stand on their own as great "works" of music. The 3rd, in particular, I found very delightful, very musical. On one hand it is nice to show off a little virtuosity, but then, virtuosity does not make up the music.
Inasmuch as this thread regards Beethoven's use of violin I will have to ask how the writing for violin differs (in their respective Sonatas) from the cello?Comment
-
I think that you are all wrong with respect to the cello!! Who composed a sonata for the piano and cello before Beethoven? Haydn did not! Mozart did not? Other than the two concerti, what else did Haydn write for the cello? In truth, Beethoven was breaking new ground with his five sonatas and his various variation pieces for the piano and cello. He had no precedent before him to copy! And it is a matter of fact that his cello sonatas span more years than his violin sonatas!
And you all must remember that the cello was an instrument that was just emancipated from its menial function as a support instrument to become a solo instrument in the late 1700's. Concerti for the cello were generally written by the soloists then, and not by the leading composers at that time."Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"Comment
-
The Haydn cellists in question are Joseph Weigl and Anton Kraft who played in the Esterhazy orchestra and later in the Lobkowitz orchestra and sometimes the Schuppanzigh quartet. Beethoven wrote the triple concerto with him in mind and Kraft's son Nikolaus (who was also a cellist) gave the first performance of Beethoven's 3rd cello sonata Op.69.Originally posted by Philip View Post'Man know thyself'Comment
-
Perhaps the things I noted most about the Cello Sonatas is the lyrical treatment of the cello part. As what Hofrat said, with the recent emancipation this is a very interesting way to spotlight the instrument.
Did not the Baroque composers (Vivaldi and company) compose any works featuring the Cello as a solo instrument? At any rate, who wrote more expressively for the Cello before Beethoven Sonatas?Comment
-
It is most interesting to note that Beethoven does not write a proper slow movement for the piano-cello ensemble until his 5th sonata. It is also interesting that Beethoven used a Baroque format for his opus 5 sonatas.
As for non-Haydn concerti for cello and orchestra, we have Luigi Boccherini (1740-1806) and Leopold Hofmann (1738-1793). Boccherini was a cellist so it is only natural that he write concerti for himself. What is more remarkable is Hofmann, who was not a cellist and in the late 1760's and early 1770's wrote 60 concerti of which 8 were for the cello. Hofmann did not have many models to study, which only shows that concerti for the instrument were very rare at that time.
Still, we are very hard pressed to find a piano-cello sonata before Beethoven."Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"Comment
-
Mozart composed a sonata for cello and piano. Unfortunately it is lost.Originally posted by Hofrat View PostComment
-
Really!? K.374g (Anhang 46) An andantino fragment for piano and cello in Bb from 1781. That constitutes a composition??"Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"Comment
-
Originally posted by Hofrat View Post
You didn't understand my posting. Apart from that fragment Mozart composed a complete sonata for cello and piano which is lost.Comment
-
Cetto;
Please quote the Kochel number of that sonata."Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"Comment
-
Sorry, Cetto, I can not find that complete sonata for piano and cello in my Kochel Catalog (fifth edition). Does it appear in a later edition of the catalog or in the Anhang or where the cello part is ad. lib.?Originally posted by Cetto von Cronstorff View Post
Please advise."Is it not strange that sheep guts should hale souls out of men's bodies?"Comment
Comment