Schubert and Solomon

[Quijote]

Indeed but one of the draw backs of the internet is that it can't pick up on inuendo via tone of voice, so the danger is always of a humerous comment being taken literally unless we smother the board with smilies!

Ah, it was a joke. I'm just grumpy and humourless, then.

[Peter]

Ah, it was a joke. I'm just grumpy and humourless, then.

No need to be so self-deprecating Philip, we've all enjoyed your witty moments - after all Bach was probably a rather well-tempered Greek and wrote all those cantatas to keep himself away from the lusty Anna Magdalena and busy with the choirboys instead!

[Quijote]

No need to be so self-deprecating Philip, we've all enjoyed your witty moments - after all Bach was probably a rather well-tempered Greek and wrote all those cantatas to keep himself away from the lusty Anna Magdalena and busy with the choirboys instead!

I was being ironic. I am a former choirboy, and I could tell you some stories about organists / music masters and so on. One must avoid stereotyping, of course, but really, what is it about church musicians? Thank Ludwig I'm a clean-living 'cellist (hah!).

[Quijote]

And talking of gender issues, where the hell is PDG these days? I would have expected the smelly old Britisher onion to start his rake stomping again. PDG?

[Peter]

I was being ironic. I am a former choirboy, and I could tell you some stories about organists / music masters and so on. One must avoid stereotyping, of course, but really, what is it about church musicians? Thank Ludwig I'm a clean-living 'cellist (hah!).

You mustn't take me so seriously Philip - I'm always aware of the subtle nuances in your posts! I only hope I haven't opened a can of worms and find the next biography on Bach claiming he was a child molester and Anna Magdalena was a drag queen! These days we mustn't make any assumptions and therefore the previously held notion that they were a heterosexual couple can no longer be taken as the obvious conclusion - first we have to disprove every other possibilty. (Please don't take this seriously!)

[Quijote]

You mustn't take me so seriously Philip - I'm always aware of the subtle nuances in your posts! I only hope I haven't opened a can of worms and find the next biography on Bach claiming he was a child molester and Anna Magdalena was a drag queen! These days we mustn't make any assumptions and therefore the previously held notion that they were a heterosexual couple can no longer be taken as the obvious conclusion - first we have to disprove every other possibilty. (Please don't take this seriously!)

Bach a child molester and Anna Magdalena a drag queen? Sounds like a subject for my next doctoral thesis. Could be that his 'Cello Suite n° 6 (with multiple double stopping and so on) is symbolic of a ménage-à-trois. Where will it all end? I mean, it's just music, isn't it?

[Quijote]

Or not. Why is von Cornystuff (and others) so opposed to this investigation?

[Quijote]

I seem to have created a niche for myself as "the forum's bad boy" by raising such issues. If so, allow me a moment to put on my steel-capped Doc Martin "bovver" boots, will you? ...

[Sorrano]

I seem to have created a niche for myself as "the forum's bad boy" by raising such issues. If so, allow me a moment to put on my steel-capped Doc Martin "bovver" boots, will you? ...

"Bad boy" I think not. Perhaps less tolerant of other views? Personally, I've enjoyed reading the discussions that you have engaged in. You bring good points to the table.

[Quijote]

"Bad boy" I think not. Perhaps less tolerant of other views? Personally, I've enjoyed reading the discussions that you have engaged in. You bring good points to the table.

You're trying to trap me, aren't you, Sorrano !? I'm not intolerant of other views, per se. But when von Crankshaft (for example; he's not alone) dismisses gender and sexuality issues out of hand as "tiresome" then I think someone has to object. This is a fascinating field of musicological research and to say otherwise borders on philistinism.

[Preston]

This is a fascinating field of musicological research...

To you it is, and apparently very much.

You can't just say that people who do not feel that it is fascinating, do not value art. There are many different types of people with many different thoughts towards this modern movement, the new musicology. I am not saying that it is not interesting though and I am not saying that I understand the new musicology as well as you do.

What book is a good book to read about the new musicology?

Best Regards,
Preston

[Sorrano]

You're trying to trap me, aren't you, Sorrano !? I'm not intolerant of other views, per se. But when von Crankshaft (for example; he's not alone) dismisses gender and sexuality issues out of hand as "tiresome" then I think someone has to object. This is a fascinating field of musicological research and to say otherwise borders on philistinism.

The question, then arises, as to the relevance of sexual and gender issues to the musician and his/her music. The exaggerated focus on this raises my eyebrows and is more curious to me than the actual studies. Freud would have enjoyed this.

[Quijote]

To you it is, and apparently very much.

You can't just say that people who do not feel that it is fascinating, do not value art. There are many different types of people with many different thoughts towards this modern movement, the new musicology. I am not saying that it is not interesting though and I am not saying that I understand the new musicology as well as you do.

What book is a good book to read about the new musicology?

Best Regards,
Preston

I'm not saying that specifically, Preston, but I do wonder why people seem so opposed to the idea. An example (to take the Owen Jander reference mentioned elsewhere) : when I first heard the slow movement of Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto I heard it as a master's complete control of a sequence of diminished sevenths (sorry, I'm a formalist at heart); then I read Jander's thesis that the piano could be construed (programmatically) as Orpheus's harp trying to placate the "furies of Hades" (the orchestra). In other words, the more we read about possible context, the more we may be able to appreciate or "understand" the music. This is the same for gender and sexuality studies : it will not change the "notes on the page" but it will bring us something extra.

You ask about a good book on the so-called "new musicology" - ask first von Cornstuff. If he is unable to enlighten you, I'll give you a few ideas. Later, ok?

[Quijote]

And damn. Stop asking intelligent questions, or how else do you expect me to achieve "escape velocity" from this forum !!?

[Quijote]

Some more musings, Preston : you agree, I'm sure, that audiences in Beethoven's day had an "approach" to music different to our own day. With the hindsight of the angels, we bring more to his music than ever before. Imagine 250 years from now - do you think people will have the same approach? I certainly hope not. Each time, Preston, that you or I listen to a piece of music, we have to recognise that we bring a "baggage" of several centuries, whether we are conscious of this or not. Music does not exist in a vacuum, there are no absolute values to apply. All is about context, function and so on. For example, the analytical approach to classical music is a relatively late phenomenon (may I quote Hoffmann, and later Schencker, Tovey et al ...), and Beethoven and his contemporaries never (as far as I can ascertain) spoke about the "function" of the C-sharp in bar seven ('cellos) of the Eroica. Thus, formalism is a relatively recent approach to music appreciation. I'm not saying this is the only "window" onto B's music. Equally, gender and sexuality issues try to offer another "window", and as such merit serious consideration. This is not, in von Corystuff's parlance, "tiresome". Rather, I see it as an honest attempt at approaching the music from another angle. What I personally find "tiresome" is the wish to "freeze" Beethoven in some sort of absolutist position. Music is, thankfully, always in a state of flux; if not, it is dead.