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Autistic Savants and LvBs

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    Autistic Savants and LvBs

    I contributed a thread a while back about genius, the usual sort of genius. What another type of genius does is really extraordinary and hopefully you will find this as interesting as I do.

    You have probably heard of autistic savants. You might recall that these are people who have really extraordinary abilities, but who are usually cursed with some degree of autism and cannot relate socially to other people in a normal manner. I was lucky to see a National Geographic documentary a few nights ago about some of these people in a series called “My Brilliant Brain” (see http://www.nationalgeographic.co.in/.../episodes.aspx for more info). I am sure some members of this site would have seen it also.

    There is, still alive today, a blind man - yes, a blind man - Leslie Lemke, who was severely autistic from early childhood but at the age of 16, was found by his stepmother playing Tchaikovsky’s Piano Concerto no. 1 during the middle of the night. He had recently heard the piece on television. This is not your blind Ray Charles or Stevie Wonder, God bless them, who can play what they know how to play. Leslie Lemke can play anything after hearing it only once and he never had any lessons. That is definitely a mark of genius. (see wikipedia for more information on him). How does he do it? We have no idea.

    Research has been done on another savant - a man, with the phenomenal ability to tell you what the day was for any date you care to give him. Because he is only partially autistic, he could be tested with MRI scans while doing his special thing, and he has a brain which seems to be “hardwired” quite differently from most peoples’. While doing his amazing calculations, he uses the part of the brain that we use for anything related to movement and muscles. He also does incredibly detailed sketch drawings.

    This raises, for me, the possibility that maybe the brains of “normal” genuises are also quite different. That is what we would have suspected as obvious, of course, but having proof that some brains just work differently from the normal is interesting.

    Genuine savants are incredibly rare: perhaps only 100 of them out of all of us 6 billion. Maybe “ordinary” genuises come somewhere in between the rest of us and the rare savants. Perhaps this is where the Glenn Goulds and Barenboims are. Maybe Mozarts and Beethovens were a little ( or a lot) closer to the autistic savants and their extraordinary abilities.

    Another savant, a young boy, 7 years old, named Marc Yu, plays classical music, including works by Beethoven, at an extremely high level. (google youtube and mark yu if you want; there is a lot of him online). An Australian scientist, a Dr Snyder, believes that we may be able to train our normal brains to think like savants. So when we wanted to, we could achieve tremendous feats of intellectual power. Maybe we coud all play the sonatas! That is food for thought, no? Imagine…

    #2
    Originally posted by AlexOv View Post
    An Australian scientist, a Dr Snyder, believes that we may be able to train our normal brains to think like savants. So when we wanted to, we could achieve tremendous feats of intellectual power. Maybe we coud all play the sonatas!
    Well, if there's a way to do that, I hope Dr. Snyder publishes his blueprint for achieving tremendous feats of intellectual power & for playing the Beethoven sonatas like Richter. I'm geared up & ready to go! It's my deepest wish to be able to casually toss off the Tempest or the Waldstein as if it were no more trouble to me than pulling my socks on.

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      #3
      Well, in the absence of any smilies to make it clear, and correct me if I am wrong, but I do detect a note of sarcasm in your post.

      Snyder's idea was not that we could all play the sonatas. He never entioned it; that was my inference. And if it was possible, it might still take years to train our minds to think differently.

      But if we could play sonatas ourselves (those peasants of us who currently cannot), if it was done with love and respect, with artistic feeling, would that be so bad? Two hundred years ago, many more people were competent at playing piano (perhaps it was their television), and I think you can be sure that in most upper class homes, at least throughout Europe, many more people would have been playing complex piano pieces than would be the case today. Beethoven would have intended to sell as many copies of his works as possible and not just to a handful of virtuosi.

      If many more people in this day and age were, for argument's sake, able to hear the sonatas played on pianos in other peoples' houses - instead of just on CDs, the radio or in concert halls for just a very few hundred or thousand - they may come to love the works, and LvB ( and other composers) might become much more well known.

      Surely, that would be good? Why should only the Richters of the world have the right to play classical music? Is it some sort of exclusive club? At what point does someone get to join it?

      I would absolutely love to be able to play the sonatas. Wouldn’t you? It would never, for me, be like pulling up my socks, because doing that does nothing for my soul and emotional well-being. Hands up all those people who would like to be able to play the sonatas instead of hearing someone else playing them?

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        #4
        Honestly, you don't need to be a musical genius to play Beethoven's sonatas. Just take lessons and practice. Maybe you wouldn't play them as brilliantly as a professional who has dedicated his entire life to playing those pieces, and maybe some of the hardest pieces, like the "Hammerklavier" would be out of reach forever, but many of the Beethoven sonatas are accessible to those who have the time and will to commit to learning them.

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          #5
          You are quite right, Chris. I was able to play some parts of some sonatas when I was younger - no, not just the Moonlight slow mov't - and still can. (It is amazing. isn't it, how you can - some part of your brain can - remember which keys to play and when, even after many years of never playing those pieces..)

          But if you could also play the Hammerklavier? That would really be something!

          Comment


            #6
            I took the liberty of showing AlexOv's post to my husband, Win Wenger. He gave me permission to respond with an article he wrote on the subject:


            ON GENIUS

            A genius goes beyond definition and well beyond how those in his field or around him conceptualize, with systems which work.

            That rather conventional statement is descriptive, but doesn't immediately tell us how the genius got that way.

            Sometimes it's a matter of stumbling into a knack, as described in my book Beyond Teaching And Learning (http://www.winwenger.com/btal.htm). This happens even when the original knack is forgotten which got that genius started. Sometimes on the smallest thing, or on one thing or another, our genius in many or most cases got on a roll, stayed on a roll, when he fell off he got quickly back on that roll, and stayed on that roll until so much of what he was doing had fallen into being part of that roll that others began recognizing him as a genius. (Or her.)

            In which case, the genius is one who finds a good horse and rides it further and better than can others, even if that horse were at first merely a colt.

            The parable of the talents comes also to mind as being apt in this context, as reportedly told by Jesus.

            We can compare types of genius throughout our history. These range from the idio-savant "rainman" type, a narrow splinter kind of genius, through the popular notion of a lopsided tortured fractional genius a la Mozart or Van Gogh, to the comprehensive wholistic genius a la Bach or Bacon who is really good at nearly everything.

            Studies suggest that for the most part - and contrary to the popular notion - people who are really good at one thing tend also to be good at many other things.

            How do some people soar miles beyond anyone else? Is it them, or is it some little trick or knack of thinking or looking or operation that they somehow stumbled into and got started on?

            If it was them, it usually wasn't a matter of somehow-innate superior intelligence. (Indeed, fractionalized rainmen may find it hard to button their own shirts.) We all know highly intelligent and even well-informed people who definitely are not geniuses! What distinguishes genius from these?

            Limbic staying power.

            It is the "Fire in the belly" that theater people and professional athletes often speak about. True giftedness seems to be mainly a function of the physical appetite structures of the limbic brain.

            - In fact, the times of physical appetite change - adolescence and middle age - are the times also in which we lost most of our really gifted people into being merely intelligent and well-informed. Fasting is an avenue in many different disciplines toward attaining extraordinary mental and/or intellectual effects. An association between intellectual sharpening and physical hunger makes sense in bio-evolutionary survival terms: in more rigorous times, all of us are descended from those who got sharper when hunting was poor. Also, though I'm unaware of any formal study on this, there's a highly apparent incidence of appetite disorders among many of the gifted, which you may rather easily notice upon attending any substantially sized Mensa group meeting.

            Drive and persistence, in other words, to override the usual discouragements, counterpart to how fractionated rainmen slip past inhibiting higher(?) mental functions which in their case are missing. Lots of people find knacks of one kind or another, but only a few have not only gotten on that roll but stayed there and returned to there until that roll became a grand revolution. Fire in the belly. As persistent as appetite drives themselves.

            What kind of genius? What kind of knack? - There is some room in which to find them - the undiscovered country which lies within and around every one of us:

            We live in a richly holographic universe, everything affecting everything else, everything relating to everything else. So that despite all that is now known in our civilization, we are only a few steps, or a few observations, away from centuries-worth of new science and new civilization no matter what direction we turn to look.

            .....win wenger
            http://www.winwenger.com

            Comment


              #7
              Nice of your husband to give his permission, Susan! What if he'd said "no"?....

              Comment


                #8
                Thanks for getting your husband to contribute this.... He don't half nail it on its several heads and he has a certain flair with the words, too. Edison might have summarised it well with his 99% hard work ( ie persistence), and 1% inspiration, excepting for the "rainman" type of savant, of course.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by susanwen View Post
                  I took the liberty of showing AlexOv's post to my husband, Win Wenger. He gave me permission to respond with an article he wrote on the subject:
                  .....

                  I didn't want to copy the entire quote, Susanwen (for reasons of space), but I feel compelled to take issue with your posting. I can't reply right now as I need more time to reflect on your comments which I think require serious rebuttal. I will get back to you, but thank you anyway for raising such issues. This is why I enjoy this forum. Excellent posting, even though I don't agree with you.

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                    #10
                    Fire when ready : }

                    This wouldn't be a discussion forum if we didn't discuss issues. If we get too far afield from Beethoven, we could take it off-list. I'm at:

                    susanwengermail@yahoo.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by susanwen View Post
                      Fire when ready : }

                      This wouldn't be a discussion forum if we didn't discuss issues. If we get too far afield from Beethoven, we could take it off-list. I'm at:

                      susanwengermail@yahoo.com

                      Oh, but I don't want to miss this.

                      Edit: Also I checked out winwenger.com and I must say that those courses look quite exciting. I also appreciate the inclusion of Tesla's picture instead of Edison's on the front page. If we only understood the gravity of half of Tesla's ideas, Edison would probably not be considered the greatest inventor by many -most impactful, perhaps. And that's only due to the restriction and sabotage of Tesla's idealogical fruition.
                      Last edited by Moonscore; 11-30-2007, 04:11 PM. Reason: Added thought

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