The coda king

[PDG]

One of Beethoven's unparalleled gifts was in his complete mastery of the art of the coda. His works teem with phenomenal musical ideas - with never a wasted note - yet just when you think he must have exhausted all possibilities during a composition, suddenly he manages to take the whole thing to yet another new level of interest & excitement with a barnstorming coda. Mozart couldn't match him in this area; neither could Schubert. Consider the 5th or 9th Symphony Finales, the Appassionata or op.110 Sonatas, the Serioso or op.132 Quartets, the Archduke Trio, the 3rd Piano Concerto, etc. etc. Even when a work has a soft ending (Piano Trio, no.3, String Trio, op.9, no.3, Sonata, op.109), we just know that it could have been no other way. He never fails to deliver, with utter logic in everything he did.

Beethoven, the ultimate musical visionary? With each composition, his closing of the door (or piano lid) on every work is his assertion that "this is as far as this can be taken", & his judgement is beyond question. Pre-ordained, inevitable, logical, peerless............Perfect.

[Rod]

I have often thought along these lines myself when listening to many an other composers effort that ends in a rather unsatisfactory manner, but never with Beethoven. Clearly the last notes must be amongst the hardest to pen, or the least considered!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 06-26-2001).]

[Bob the Composer]

I agree. I often envy Beethoven in this area, because I have that difficulty myself from time to time. I once wrote a piece for a wind ensemble, and after a reading of it by some friends of mine, one of them actually approached me and said he didn't like the ending, didn't think it was enough. For me, there's been only 3 or 4 compositions (at the very most) out of my 10-15 otherwise satisfactory compositions that I think ended in a proper manner. This reaffirms Beethoven's superiority in that area of composition.

Bob

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I am not a number, I am a free man!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have often thought along these lines myself when listening to many an other composers effort that ends in a rather unsatisfactory manner, but never with Beethoven. Clearly the last notes must be amongst the hardest to pen, or the least considered!

I think I've read somewhere that the beginning and the end are the hard bits - what comes in the middle is a doddle!

Surely one of the most supreme codas of all is that to the finale of the 7th where the bass just grind away getting deeper and deeper - 'sawing away regardless' in Sir Henry Wood's memorable phrase!

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'Man know thyself'

[cbarb]

Yes, this was one of the things that I found so astonishing about some of the piano sonatas, and that caused me to search out more, and more, and more. Another innovative facet of his genius.

Reading a Mozart site a year or two ago I learned that Mozart's shortcomings (as perceived by some) in this area are at least partially attributable to the musical culture/tradition of his time. If I remember correctly, the substance of the works were often expected to be found in the opening and middle movements; the finals were more likely to frame the subject, rather than extend it - offer the perfunctory wave goodbye, rather than the passionate embrace. (During Mozart's late period, this begins to change, wonderfully.)

With my knowledge of music history being so humble, I cannot speak authoritatively on this. I would welcome more educated comment.

But of course it is more than this. As a friend of mine said cynically, maybe we can offer ameliorating reasons for the shortcomings of LvB's predecessors, but what do we adduce for those of his successors?

[PDG]

Wood talking about sawing (Peter)?? Does a pig talk about slicing?! Slicing?? Ah, Wimbledon fortnight is here (except for the Swiss Miss - 13 days off for you, Martina!).........

But I digress (ever so slightly). Mozart's codas (IMHO) can't compare with Beethoven's for ingenuity. I have often thought, "What would Beethoven have done with the development of Mozart's themes?" Of course, his invention would have been more forward-thinking (more Beethovenian!!), but also possibly detrimental to the themes because of this. In other words, the level of satisfaction the listener expects from a whole Mozart composition is determined by - as the keystone - the basic themes employed. Mozart's codas didn't stretch him, as Beethoven's did him, because his themes are generally simpler. Beethoven had more to prove in his musical summing up because his "keystones" are grander in design; thus if the listener is satisfied with a Beethoven work, it can only mean that Mr v B's achievement is greater (IMHO).

15-0.

[Rod]

Originally posted by cbarb:

Yes, this was one of the things that I found so astonishing about some of the piano sonatas, and that caused me to search out more, and more, and more. Another innovative facet of his genius.

Reading a Mozart site a year or two ago I learned that Mozart's shortcomings (as perceived by some) in this area are at least partially attributable to the musical culture/tradition of his time. If I remember correctly, the substance of the works were often expected to be found in the opening and middle movements; the finals were more likely to frame the subject, rather than extend it - offer the perfunctory wave goodbye, rather than the passionate embrace. (During Mozart's late period, this begins to change, wonderfully.)

With my knowledge of music history being so humble, I cannot speak authoritatively on this. I would welcome more educated comment.

But of course it is more than this. As a friend of mine said cynically, maybe we can offer ameliorating reasons for the shortcomings of LvB's predecessors, but what do we adduce for those of his successors?

For a long time I don't think there was a percieved requirement in music to have this continuous sence of momentum from beginning to end in a composition. Certainly not in Baroque times. Most of Handels greatest 'finale-esque' Chorus's do not happen at the end of the last act, but much earlier, with the final act being a more introspective affair (eg Messiah). One quickly gets used to the idea in this case. I suspect over very long pieces (like H's) this is the only way - I can't see how you can maintain this momentum for over three hours without the music becomming over the top. Also I suspect with the earlier music that a Christian influence may be playing its part in this introspection - ie regardless of human victory or whatever, in the end we all bow to God, or so I'm told.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
I have often thought, "What would Beethoven have done with the development of Mozart's themes?" Of course, his invention would have been more forward-thinking (more Beethovenian!!), but also possibly detrimental to the themes because of this.

It may surprise people here to know that Mozart anticipated B's expansion of sonata form in his C major quintet K.515 - the exposition is longer than that in the Eroica and equals that of the 9th.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
It may surprise people here to know that Mozart anticipated B's expansion of sonata form in his C major quintet K.515 - the exposition is longer than that in the Eroica and equals that of the 9th.

No surprise here! I think 'anticipated' is the wrong word. Wasn't Mozart just showing off to the King of Prussia that he was a better, or 'cleverer' composer of Quintets than Boccherini, after the King had retained Boccherini as his court chamber composer? Either way, the point is surely that by extending the exposition (we're talking about the first movement, I assume), Mozart left himself an awful lot to do with the development in which, frankly, he does not deliver the goods. Good music, yes, but somehow predictably Mozartian; whereas Beethoven always seems to have a long term game plan; a definite sense of where he is headed. From the very first bar, the eventual closing statement seems somehow perfectly obvious, although only after you've heard it!! Maybe this partly down to familiarity on my part, but it's just the extraordinary logic behind all of Beethoven's music which continues to hold my fascination. And it always will.

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 06-27-2001).]

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think I've read somewhere that the beginning and the end are the hard bits - what comes in the middle is a doddle!

And isn't the same true of playing? So you screw up a bit in the middle of the piece? Just make sure you get the beginning and ending right!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chris:
And isn't the same true of playing? So you screw up a bit in the middle of the piece? Just make sure you get the beginning and ending right!

Exactly! I remember years ago in a competition having an horrendous memory slip missing out about 20 bars of a Rachmaninov prelude!! - fortunately I kept going and managed to find myself, ending the piece correctly - the adjudicator didn't even notice!

No comments on Rachmaninov from Rod please by way of explanation!!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
No surprise here! I think 'anticipated' is the wrong word. Wasn't Mozart just showing off to the King of Prussia that he was a better, or 'cleverer' composer of Quintets than Boccherini, after the King had retained Boccherini as his court chamber composer? Either way, the point is surely that by extending the exposition (we're talking about the first movement, I assume), Mozart left himself an awful lot to do with the development in which, frankly, he does not deliver the goods. Good music, yes, but somehow predictably Mozartian;

First of all, if we're judging purely by size and length, Mahler is a vastly superior composer to Beethoven and the concentrated works of Beethoven's maturity inferior to his early middle period works. This is of course nonsense. To dismiss this Mozart quintet (generally regarded as one of his greatest works) as mere showing off and as typically Mozartian (as though that were an insult) is ludicrous. Would be criticise a Beethoven work by calling it typically Beethovian? You criticise the development , presumably for its comparitive brevity, but what about its content? It is one of the most complex, concentrated and richest he ever wrote!


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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
First of all, if we're judging purely by size and length, Mahler is a vastly superior composer to Beethoven and the concentrated works of Beethoven's maturity inferior to his early middle period works. This is of course nonsense. To dismiss this Mozart quintet (generally regarded as one of his greatest works) as mere showing off and as typically Mozartian (as though that were an insult) is ludicrous. Would be criticise a Beethoven work by calling it typically Beethovian? You criticise the development , presumably for its comparitive brevity, but what about its content? It is one of the most complex, concentrated and richest he ever wrote!

Ouch! I admit that I should have waited until this morning before posting that - I was tired & a little inebriated I didn't, however, dismiss this Quintet as "mere" showing off; more that Mozart used the opportunity with it to put one over on Boccherini in the eyes of the Prussian king. Yes, it's the brevity of the development I was aiming at - but not hitting the target. I just played the piece again, & the development seems (to me) a little too insubstantial when compared to the exposition; almost as though Mozart had outfoxed himself! Of course, when talking about Mozart, as is the case with Beethoven, any mild criticism is offered in reverently hushed tones. Can we please leave Mahler out of this?!?!

[Claudie MICAULT]

I think B. had an musical idea each minute : his beginnings are also tremendous and his developments of the themes.... An yes his ends are fantastic.
How much symphonies of MOZART can people remind from all those he have written ? How
many sonatas, etc... Everybody can speak about almost 4 symphonies of B. and 3 sonatas (I am speaking of "normal people", not about B.'s fans of course...).
I do not criticise MOZART's music : he had also great moments... but his character is different, lighter, and his music reflected that. Sometimes I think Mozart obey to much to compositions rules of his time. B. open an other world.

[Serge]

While my memory on such matters slips far too often, I seem to recall Bernstein saying something like that with Beethoven you knew that no note was ever wasted, that B. knew exactly what note had to follow the preceding one. Truer words have not been spoken, hmm?